Any loophole for the 1912 rule?

[Bella999]

So, my application had been a few years ago denied due to the 1912 rule.

My grandfather was born in 1911, and my great grandfather naturalized in March 1912.
The rule of 1912 didn't go into effect until July 1912!!!
( to make a long story short, when we went to the Embassy in DC ,a woman there at the time had been in charge of citizenship application for forever looked at our papers( including my great grandfathers naturalization certificate) and said we qualified 100%, and we went through all the work of getting paperwork ready. Then, when we went to turn it in the new lady(a few years later) in charge at the time spent 2 hrs looking over everything with us before before talking our checks for the application, but she missed that my great grandfather got naturalized before July 1912( we were denied within a week, so at least we didn't have to wait months like some people., ughhh what to do! it was super disappointing of course. If the date of naturalization was THAT important you would think they would look at that super closely, right?. But, things happen so i get it.)

I always research if there are any way around the rule( because you never know if rules get either changed or relaxed over the years) and recently found some interesting articles about the rule of 1912.
I've read these two updates

https://www.italianpapers.it/1620/loss- ... ue-update/
and

https://mbersanilaw.com/italian-citizenship-1912-rule/
(read where it says "Solution #2: Italian Citizenship 1912 Rule and Ius Soli Rule."

further more from the Italian Embassy's official website it talks about the Ius Soli Rule......(https://www.esteri.it/mae/en/servizi/st ... nza_0.html)  "In fact, Article 7 of Law No. 555/1912 enabled the children of Italian citizens, born in a foreign State which had granted them citizenship according to the principle of ius soli, to retain the Italian citizenship acquired at birth, even if the parents lost it when minors, thus recognizing to the persons concerned the significant right to renounce it when becoming of legal age, if living abroad.This special rule derogated not only to the principle of single citizenship but also to the principle whereby the fate of the children’ s citizenship depends on the father, as provided for by Article 12 of Law No. 555\1912."   

 As a person who is not familiar with Italian law, of course, I'm SOOOO confused.
I get that with the rule of 1912--- "Italian citizens naturalized before July 1, 1912, cannot transmit Italian citizenship to their children"--- Techincally my great-grandfather naturlized after the birth of my grandfather! But, again he was naturalized in March 1912, and not after July 1912.

BUT! from reading the principle of the "ius soli", does that mean that my grandfather technically was an Italian citizen at the time of his birth in the US and therefor never lost his citizenship as a child?

What is anyone's else's understand of this whole "ius soli" rule. I mean I know this whole "ius soli" rule is not exactly new either.
And, could this rule apply to me getting around the 1912 rule? I was going to call the Embassy to ask them, but I know they are busy and don't have much time to talk on the phone. Plus, when I call them I want to sound educated on the rule.

[bbivona]

My grandfather was born in 1911, and my great grandfather naturalized in March 1912.
The rule of 1912 didn't go into effect until July 1912!!!

<SNIP>

further more from the Italian Embassy's official website it talks about the Ius Soli Rule......(https://www.esteri.it/mae/en/servizi/st ... nza_0.html)  "In fact, Article 7 of Law No. 555/1912 enabled the children of Italian citizens, born in a foreign State which had granted them citizenship according to the principle of ius soli, to retain the Italian citizenship acquired at birth, even if the parents lost it when minors, thus recognizing to the persons concerned the significant right to renounce it when becoming of legal age, if living abroad.This special rule derogated not only to the principle of single citizenship but also to the principle whereby the fate of the children’ s citizenship depends on the father, as provided for by Article 12 of Law No. 555\1912."   

<SNIP>

BUT! from reading the principle of the "ius soli", does that mean that my grandfather technically was an Italian citizen at the time of his birth in the US and therefor never lost his citizenship as a child?

As the 1912 rule states, if a child is born to an Italian, he is Italian, and if the parent naturalizes after the birth, the child does not lose his citizenship. Before the 1912 rule, a parent naturalizing caused him to give up Italian citizenship for both him and his children. Thus your grandfather was an Italian citizen when he was born in 1911 and lost that citizenship in March 1912. It is my understanding that that new rule in July of 1912 applied only prospectively. It meant that in the future children wouldn't automatically lose the citizenship based on a parent naturalizing, but it didn't give citizenship back to persons who had already lost it under the old rule.

[dannyjosa]

During my fiasco in December, the bureaucrat invented a new law on the day, and said 'kids born to Italians outside Italy before 1912 cannot be Italian, even if there parent never naturalised abroad'. You can read about it here: https://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/ ... 45#p310045

While she was ranting, she told me that 'you can go to the law courts, they are a travesty and overturn decisions including the 1912 rule'. FYI She also said 'its a travesty:they even allow women to transmit citizenship through courts'.

So, based on her words: I'd have thought it is possible through the courts. Though, Im unsure how competent the bureaucrat who met me (in London) was, maybe she was wrong and you can't use the courts for this...Still, it would be worth trying to find out more!

[Rruffolo]

You might be able to petition through the courts if the italian ancestor's italian-born wife did not formally naturalize. Woman that involuntarily lost their italian citizenship through their husband's naturalization could potentially pass their citizenship to their children through a 1948 case.

[Rruffolo]

You might be able to petition through the courts if the italian ancestor's italian-born wife did not formally naturalize. Woman that involuntarily lost their italian citizenship through their husband's naturalization could potentially pass their citizenship to their children through a 1948 case.

[qualdom]

During my fiasco in December, the bureaucrat invented a new law on the day, and said 'kids born to Italians outside Italy before 1912 cannot be Italian, even if there parent never naturalised abroad'. You can read about it here:

She didn't invent that rule...there were rogue consular officers trying to enforce that in US consulates during the summer of 2019. It created a near panic on the citizenship forums. However, that rule had no legal basis and it was quickly put to rest by the Italian government.

Consular officials get a little too drunk on power and like to act a fool. It's not just an Italian thing, I've had consular officials from another European countries who liked to invent citizenship rules from time to time.

[qualdom]

You might be able to petition through the courts if the italian ancestor's italian-born wife did not formally naturalize. Woman that involuntarily lost their italian citizenship through their husband's naturalization could potentially pass their citizenship to their children through a 1948 case.

yes, and since the vast majority of Italian men married Italian women prior to 1912, the chances are high that the rejected applicant could possibly have a 1948 case.

[mler]

If your ggm was born in Italy, she automatically lost her Italian citizenship and gained US citizenship when her husband naturalized pre-1922. Since she did not herself naturalize, she retained her Italian citizenship, and as RRuffalo suggested, you can initiate a 1948 case tracing citizenship through your ggm. This involves contesting pre-1948 barriers to women and also pre-1912 laws automatically causing loss of citizenship to children. Some 1948 attorneys may not be willing to tackle both, but my guess is that there are several who will. Ask around.

[afecad]

Some 1948 attorneys may not be willing to tackle both, but my guess is that there are several who will. Ask around.

This explains my case. My great-grandfather petitioned to naturalize in 1903, he later married my great-grandmother who was born in Italy. My grandfather was born in 1915. ICA went off of census records initially to move with a 1948 case. They recently located his petition to naturalize, confirmed that and a letter of "no record found" with respect to my great-grandmother.

ICA appears to handle many 1948 cases, they even shared a list of cases they won, several were won on appeal.

https://italiancitizenshipassistance.co ... mon-cases/

[JTSD20]

I wish - ICA (the firm I’m working with) let me know that even though my GG Grandfather naturalized after the birth of my G Grandfather (birth year 1906, naturalized 1909), the 1912 year still killed my chances of applying at the consulate. I’ve seen one website say Jus Soli of the US born ancestor should theoretically make us elligible, but someone would have to challenge it in court.

I’m going through my GG Grandma instead, since she was naturalized involuntarily through marriage.