Liste di leva, brick wall, unsuccessful searches (Padova / Treviso)

[jlfr]

Greetings everyone,

I’m here because I need some brick wall busting help. Before I explain where I am, allow me to try my best to share everything I’ve done so far (in the most concise manner possible):

I’m searching for information about my great-grandparents.

I once was able to trace one side of my Italian family tree: I had a name for my other great-grandfather, a birth year, and his father’s name, but the thing that helped me unlock the answer to find precious data to trace that lineage was the Lista di Leva. I’m sure most here are familiar with “liste di leva,” but I’d like to point out that I did most of that research the old school way: by getting in touch by email with churches, comuni, etc, and requesting information. Most of that search happened before FamilySearch was as big as it is now.

So when it came down to look up the other side of my Italian family, I felt encouraged to try the same: liste di leva, then contact churches/comuni requesting the certificates I needed to officialize everything. This time, knowing that a lot of the books were available on FamilySearch, I decided I’d take a look over everything I could find before writing to comuni and churches. But from the go there were problems regarding data: no idea about precise birthdates, a general idea about birth years and the location I should take a look at, not to mention the fact I was not sure about the correct spelling for one of the last names, and also no idea about my great-grandparents’ parents’ names. So I thought that liste di leva is the best way to start. And that’s when the #1 problem arouse: the researches on the Padova and Treviso’s lists didn’t return any results.


All I know is that supposedly my great-grandfather was born in Padova (though some people say his daughter was born in Treviso). So:

- I tried Archivio di stato di Padova (https://archiviodistato.provincia.padova.it/leva/) but there was nothing about him there.

- I also tried Archivio di stato di Treviso and also got zero results.

Archivio di Stato di Treviso told me that all of their records were online and there was nothing else they could do for me, and Padova hasn't really been helpful in answering emails.



- On FamilySearch.org, I was not able to find a collection of images for Catholic church records in Padova. Do they exist? Am I missing something? Realizing that church records were out of question, I decided to look for a birth certificate for their first born, a girl born in 1893 - something that happened after comuni started registering births. I knew her parents' names, their age, and also their current residence at time of her birth, would be in the book... so I thought that was a good next move. For months I've been taking a look at records from several different comuni in Padova (from years 1892 and 1893) and I’m talking about more than 1100 results(!), but that's has proven to be a herculean task. I actually have already taken a look at every book that’s been labeled “Birth Records.” Books that are classified as “Birth Record Indexes, Birth Records, Birth Supplements, Death Record Indexes, Death Records, Marriage Proclamation Records” on the Record Type column have proven useless as they generally show only Marriage records and there is simply no birth record in sight in them. I dunno why they label some of those books that way but I've just decided to skip those. In order to not confuse anyone about what I'm talking about, I've attached an image. Please take a look if you need clarification.


- I have persisted nonetheless, and recently I've been trying the Civil Registration records for Padova, and have been focusing on Marriage Records trying to see if I can find my great-grandparents marriage license. But so far nothing, and I’m already thinking that this might turn out to be a waste of time, as I could be looking over every record for a region where I'm not sure the marriage took place.

So here are my questions:

-Is there any alternative way I could consider and try in order to find their records online?

I have heard people mentioning Ruoli matricolari. I've seen people mentioning Census records. I just don't have any idea how to get access or search those records. Are rule matricolari the same as liste di leva?


- Does anyone here can tell me for sure if all the existing material for Liste di leva of both Padova and Treviso regions is indeed online on their websites? Is there an official word on that? Isn’t there anything else remaining in some box somewhere and not online?

- I understand that conscription of all males at the age of eighteen was instituted in 1862. But did every single man indeed present themselves for it or were there exceptions?

- Even though Civil registration was the norm - I think - starting in 1871 for births, was it possible that some people ignored them and kept just registering births and marriages at churches instead of at the comune?

- In the decades between 1850 and 1899, were all the comuni then the same as they exist now or were new comune created after that? It'd be helpful to know that since I could just ignore some if that was the case. But so far I've seen that most of the comuni listed on FamilySearch do have records that go way back.

- Church records for Padova and Treviso are not on FamilySearch, correct?

- I've written to a few Comuni but some were not very welcoming and demanded a bunch of things like copy of passport. Some said that what I was requesting was not of importance and therefore they were not gonna help me. Also, churches in Padova demand payment to look into their records/books, and I found that to be yet another problem since I don't believe they do genealogical research and I don't have precise data and info to give them.


I just find it truly unbelievable that I cannot find a single trace of the people I’m looking for and - as you can see - I’ve tried different routes.


At this time, I decided that I don’t want to share names I'm looking for publicly. But I’m not contrary to sharing info privately.

I also must tell you that people have suggested I hired a genealogist, but at this time I’ve decided to not pursue that possibility.

I'd greatly appreciate any help you can give me. Thank you for reading my thread.

[mmogno]

It is very difficult to help you if you don't want to share the names, dates and places of birth, and family relationships of the people you are looking for.

Why do you say they should have been born in the province of Padua or Treviso?

Did they emigrate? When, where?

Here the index of those born in Mestrino (Padua)

in 1892
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cat=742814

in 1893
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cat=742814

[jlfr]

Thank you so much for replying, mmogno!

It is very difficult to help you if you don't want to share the names, dates and places of birth, and family relationships of the people you are looking for.

I apologize. I'm not contrary to sharing in private.

I've already entered many combinations and different spellings on FamilySearch and nothing came up besides the stuff that was already in a family tree that was created by some acquaintances.

I'm really trying to see the possibilities regarding the stuff I outlined - liste di leva and possible census data, etc.

Why do you say they should have been born in the province of Padua or Treviso?

Because my great-grandfather's death certificate says he was from Padova. But there's no other detail and the information was provided by a third party and not a family member. That document is from 1931. It says he was 78 years old when he died. That gives us a 1853 birth year. Comuni weren't registering births then.

Treviso was an information that was passed down by some family members who said they recalled the information being circulated during funeral service for his daughter - my grandaunt. But that information has been questioned by her direct descendants. I could expand more on why they discredit that info, but it's a convoluted story that really won't add anything to my research.

Did they emigrate? When, where?

They immigrated to South America - we guess - at the end of the 1890s. But the docs that were found there offered little help.

Here the index of those born in Mestrino (Padua)

in 1892
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cat=742814

in 1893
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cat=742814

Thank you. I had already reviewed those records.

[Tessa78]

Let us help you with your search...

As mmogno says: It is difficult without names, dates, places.

T.

[jlfr]

Let us help you with your search...

As mmogno says: It is difficult without names, dates, places.

T.

Thank your for participating, T.!

There's a reply I left for mmogno that is still in moderation. As soon as moderation clears it and it shows up, you will be able to see complementary information as to my original request.

I'm not against sharing information, but I just don't wanna do it publicly. Perhaps I could DM you guys the info.

[jlfr]

Hi everyone. My reply to @mmogno I posted on Sep 29 was finally cleared by mod team like 3 days ago. So I'd like to circle back and see if it's possible to have this topic/conversation revived. Perhaps new information or ideas could help me out on my quest.

Thank you.

[PippoM]

You say they first immigrated to South America, and then, I guess, to the USA.
Do you have their ship manifests?
Have you tried sites with ship lists from Italy to South America?

[jlfr]

You say they first immigrated to South America, and then, I guess, to the USA.
Do you have their ship manifests?
Have you tried sites with ship lists from Italy to South America?

I tried some. The problem is that I don't have an exact date. But I did look at some lists - some were PDF files that you actually have to read through and some were in a database that you type names and see what comes up. I wasn't able to find anything. It's also hard to be precise about any of those lists because it's not uncommon to hear that some lists were lost or just destroyed.