Help finding the parents of a person

[dpv]

I am stumped on a problem and would like to engage this generous and insightful community.

I am trying to definitively determine the parents of an individual: Giovanni Visco.

Giovanni (to me) is a bit of an enigma since I can't find his birth record, marriage record or death record. Any one of those items would lead me to confirm his parents.

The first appearance I find of Giovanni is the birth of his son (Domenico Antonio) in 1823.

http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0

Giovanni is listed as 26 on this birth certificate, so a birth date around 1797 is reasonable. By this time he is married to Giuseppina Scala, but I find no marriage record. This marriage may be one of those years that is not available.

I find that Giovanni has three more children: Maria Maddelena (9/25/26), Antonia Margarita (1/20/29) and Samuel Antonio (9/20/31).

I also find that two of Giovanni's children pass away early: Antonia Margarita (12/18/29) and Samuel Antonio (8/14/32).

From Antonia's death record, we find that Giovanni is listed as 30 (perhaps there is some rounding there) and Giovanni's father (Domenico) is listed as 60 (which would make his birth year about 1871). Okay...so we have Domenico Visco, but need to know which one he is and, more importantly, who his his wife (and the mother of Giovanni).

http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0


Samuel Antonio's death record has the same people, but Domenico is listed now as 50, though it is three years later. I'd assume this is an error in the person completing the form.

http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0



My conjecture, but I have no direct information, is that the Domenico Visco listed above (Giovanni's father) is married to Margarita Laina. However, this is just an educated guess based on other information. One thing that makes me think this is the following:

http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0

This is the death record of Nicolina Visco from 1835. Giovanni Visco is listed as one of the witnesses (age 36), so the DOB would make sense. He is also listed as Nicolina's brother. Since Nicolina's parents are listed as Domenico Visco and Margarita Laina, this would lend support to my conjecture. But, as I mentioned, I have no "direct" document that lists Giovanni's parents (not birth certificate, marriage certificate or death certificate).


Any thoughts on the validity of my conjecture from this community and/or information to confirm his parents?

Thank you,

Don

[PippoM]

Have you extensively searched his death record?
Or have you searched his surviving children's marriages?

[AngelaGrace56]

Here is the 1851 marriage of Domenicantonio Visco to Angela D'Amato: http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0

Both Giovanni and Giuseppina are still living. The only attachments mentioned are the birth records of bride and groom, which won't be that helpful in finding the names of Giovanni's parents.


Edit to Add: Just wanted to mention, in case you hadn't noticed, that in both Samuel's Death Record, and also in Nicolina's Death Record each Domenico Visco mentioned has the occupation molinaro (miller).

Angela

[dpv]

Pippo: I have searched for Giovanni's death record with the information available (1813 - 1856) on the Italian Ancestors site, but did not find it. Where else is available to search?

Angela: Yes...Domenico Visco's occupation changes depending on the document. While I won't provide the citation here, this is what I find:

BIRTH RECORDS:
Porsia Visco (b: 5/21/13). Domenico is a bracciale.
Porsia Donata Barbara Visco (b: 12/12/14). Domenico is a bracciale.
Porsia (b: 4/25/16). Domenico is a molinaro. Rosantonia (b: 4/25/16). Domenico is a molinaro.

Domenico is 42 by now and Margarita Laina is 39, so while they had many children, these are the only records I find that are available (starting with 1813).

MARRIAGE RECORDS
Giuseppina Visco and Carmine Scala (m: 7/10/28). Alas, Domenico is now listed again as bracciale.
Nicola Visco and Giuseppina Giliberti (m: 2/3/38). Domenico is now listed differently, a land-owner? (possidente).
Rosantonia Visco and Antonio Domenico Luigi (m:12/5/40). Domenico is back to being a molinaro.
Nicola Visco and Irena Trimarco (m: 12/5/40). Brother and sister get married on same day! His second, her first. Domenico is listed as molinaro.
Porsia Visco and Domenico Maffeo (m: 1/22/43). Domenico is still listed as molinaro.


DEATH RECORDS
Porsia Visco (d: 3/2/14). Domenico Visco is a bracciale.
Nicolina Visco (d: 10/6/35). Domenico Visco is a molinaro.
Giuseppina Visco (d: 3/19/48). Domenico Visco is back to being listed as a bracciale.

Domenico's own death record (d: 10/26/55). It lists his age in the 80s and a bracciale.

---

I do have Margarita Laina's death record (d: 7/30/37) and it lists her son as Giovanni who is age 38, and that makes sense. Once again, is it the same Giovanni Visco?



Thanks to anyone who can provide their perspective on these compelling, yet seemingly indirect confirmation of Giovanni's parents.

Regards,

Don

[AngelaGrace56]

There are further records for the town of Petina here at Family Search. Just click on the little camera: https://www.familysearch.org/search/cat ... %20Library


1866 Deaths begin here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cat=719672

There are ten year death indices here covering 1866-1875: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cat=719672 (It shows one Giovanni Visco who died in 1869)

1869 Death No 34 Visco Giovanni: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cat=719672 (Unfortunately, there's a snag. It looks like Family Search didn't film the next page of the register so we don't know which Giovanni Visco this might be. The records jump from No 34 to No 38.)

Anyway, I'll leave this with you as I need to go out soon. Hopefully you will find some helpful records here.


Edit to Add: I don't think you have this:
1875 Death No 12 Porzia Visco: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cat=719672

Angela

[dpv]

Thanks, Angela.

That record for Giovanni Visco was exactly what I needed to provide a definitive answer...and yet the next page is missing!

There is a whole host of circumstantial evidence, however. This is a small town (always under 2000 people), Visco isn't that popular of a name in Petina (unlike Scala or Zito), and I haven't found another Giovanni Visco who had a father that wasn't Domenico.

However, just because I want something to be true doesn't make it true.

Any additional advice or your person thoughts on my conjecture given the evidence?

Regards.

Don

[AngelaGrace56]

Just a quick thought here as I'm suppose to be somewhere else soon. I was really disappointed also that the Death Record was sooooo incomplete. I'm thinking though, that maybe you could write to the town of Petuna and ask them to look in the 1869 register and send you a copy of the complete record. You know the name, the year, and even the number of the Death Record so how hard could it be for them to find it for you and make a copy of the "complete" record and send it to you. If there's no help there then try the State Archives, they should have a copy. I'm certain that what has happened is that when Family Search were filming they accidently turned over two pages and didn't realise. I've seen this before.

Anyways, meanwhile I'm thinking about some of the other matters you have raised here.

I also wanted to mention to you, that, I have noticed on Family Search that there is a tree or two pertaining to your family. It bugs me though that there are no citations included. If you can't find it, I'll take a screen shot and message it to you. ('m not sure whether we are suppose to do this on a public forum or not. Not sure what the rules are re this.)

Must dash. All the best to you.

Angela

[dpv]

Thank you, Angela. I do appreciate your suggestions.

I am well aware of that tree / those trees in Family Search. Almost all of them have no citations. My efforts to contact those who added the information have been in vain. It is why I am so grateful to have found these archives so I can do the investigations myself.

There is one tree with Margarita Laina married to Domenico Visco in Family Search. They list seven children. I can account for most of them, but incomplete data on births/deaths/marriages prevent me from confirming all. And since it says Domenico and Margarita were married in 1795 (no citation), I suspect they had a few children prior to the first listed in 1803 (which is Giuseppina). Thus, the timeline would fit with Giovanni (estimated to be born about 1799).

Like I mentioned...a lot of information points in the same direction with no one piece of definitive information. However, at this point I would surprised if Giovanni Visco wasn't the son of Domenico and Margarita Laina.

Thank you,

Don

[dpv]

Dear Angela:

It's been almost five years since I posted this...but I went off and worked on another side of the family for a few years...and then my non-Italian side...before coming back to this one.

It is not a great strategy, since I have forgotten a lot!

At any rate, I spent a big chunk of today wondering why I didn't copy the second page of the Giovanni Visco death certificate...only to find out (after many hours) that it didn't exist. I only realized this after reviewing these old threads.

What I wonder...and it is the point of my message now...is whether it exists antenati:

https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/archive ... 50&lang=en

I can't find "Petina" listed anywhere for information after 1865.

Within the link you provided above from Family Search (it still works), some of the books are labeled "Polla". I assume that Petina was so small that is was lumped in with Polla?

My thought was that I could find the second page of that death certificate at Antenati. I would assume that, perhaps, the Antenati website have unique scans to Family Search? Maybe I am incorrect.

Any thoughts/ideas you might have here would be helpful.


By the way, I read through some of the other threads where you (and others) have helped me. I appreciate how helpful this community is.

Warm regards,

Don

[AngelaGrace56]

Hello Don

Welcome back!!!

Re the antenati site, the records for the town of Petina in Salerno Province end at 1856 inclusive, then they continue on from 1866 on Family Search. If the records for a town are on Family Search, then they won’t be on the antenati site and vice versa. Generally, if civil records have been digitised, you will find post 1866 records for most towns in Italia on Family Search and pre 1865 records on the antenati site.

As suggested, did you write to the State Archives in Salerno to request a copy of the 1869 Death Record of Giovanni Visco (Act No 34)? If you didn’t, then I would now suggest writing to the actual town of Petina first and ask for a “copia integral di Atto di Morte" which will be a complete copy of the Death Record and not just an extract.

I think this is the correct address: anagrafe@comunedipetina.it Hopefully someone might confirm the address and help you with the letter if needed.

I’ll have another read through the thread later and get back to you if I think of anything else.

Kind regards
Angela

P.S. The civil records you see on the antenati site were filmed by Family Search.

[dpv]

Awesome! Thanks again!

Here is my attempt at a letter. I hope someone can see if I am missing something (or have taken the wrong pathway). I can email the address you provided.



Egregio signore o signora:

Mi chiamo Donald Visco e sto richiedendo informazioni dai vostri archivi sul mio antenato, Giovanni Visco.

Nome e Cognome: GIOVANNI VISCO

Data di nascita: DI 1799
Luogo di nascita: PETINA, SALERNO

Figlio di: ANTONIO e MARGARITA LAINA

Data di morte: 29/07/1869
Luogo di morte: PETINA, SALERNO

Ho una copia parziale del certificato di morte, che è allegata. È il numero 34 (Giovanni Visco) in fondo alla pagina. Tuttavia, la pagina successiva di quel certificato manca.

La contatto oggi per chiederle se può ricevere una scansione di quella pagina mancante.

Grazie in anticipo per la vostra gentilezza e il vostro aiuto.

Sinceramente,

Don Visco

[AngelaGrace56]

Hello Don

Well done!!! I can read the letter perfectly - hopefully someone else will take a look at it and make any corrections if needed.

Just some thoughts:

You have placed Giovanni's birth at 1799 - are you certain about that year? If you arn't certain maybe type "circa 1799".

You have Giovanni as the son of Antonio - Was he not the son of Domenico Visco? I'm not even sure if you need to put the father's name anyway, because you are wanting to confirm who Giovanni's parents were. Because you are not certain who his parents were, what will be the confirming factor is if it lists the correct name of his wife.

We don't know for sure he died on 29 July 1869 - that was the date of the death registration. The actual date of death will be in the body of the letter - which of course we can't see.

I was just having a second look through the thread and decided to locate Margarita Laina's death record. You mentioned she had died on 30 July 1837. It's got some good family relationships in it. Strange it doesn't mention her husband's name though? Here's the translation:

Death No 34: Margarita Laina
Registered in Petina on 31 July 1837

Appearing were Giovanni Visco, 37 yo (c.1800), bracciale (day labourer), living in Petina, son of the deceased, and Vincenzo Visco, 40 yo, bracciale, living in Petina brotherinlaw of the same (so he was only three years older than his nephew (which does happen sometimes). They reported that on 30 July 1837 at 9 am Margarita Laina died in her own home.

She was born in Petina, a contadina, living in Petina, the daughter of Leonardo Laina, a bracciale, living in Petina and of the deceased Domenica Carleo also from Petina..
https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12 ... 90/Lq4yR7B
Page 40 of 74

Angela

[dpv]

Thanks, Angela.

You are right -- he is the son of Domenico. Not sure why I put Antonio...probably because I wrote it late at night.

Yes...I will make the modifications you suggest.

During COVID, I went through the Antenati site (and the Family Search site) to find all the births/deaths/marriages that have a "Visco" somewhere in the form. I downloaded each year and then went through them, painstakingly. For each, I wrote it down in a book (births/deaths/marriages) and have folders on my drive with the same for each of the "Visco" documents.

Could I have missed things? Sure.

But now I am back to working on the Visco family in Petina five years on.

I appreciate all the help.

Warm regards,

Don

[AngelaGrace56]

Hi Don

I went through all the information here twice, and re-located some of the records on the antenati site, as the links are not working any more. You have done an excellent job with gleaning additional information about family members who were present to register deaths etc. Like you, I would be surprised if Giovanni Visco wasn’t the son of Domenico Visco and Margarita Laina. Am hoping that you receive a positive reply from Petine Comune soon. Keep us posted.

(Interesting about how you spent Covid Lockdown. I did a similar thing with one of my ancestral names. I typed everything up on a spreadsheet.)

Kind regards
Angela