Court order name change --- so close yet so far!

[SChiarini]

Hi all

I am so close to getting my citizenship however when I went to my appointment back in Sept in New YOrk, they told me the only discrepancy i had was on my Grandmothers birth certificate. Her mothers maiden name (my GGM) is listed as Lena Angelina and her married name is listed as Lena Proscia.

The correct name should be Angelina Ferrante and Angelina Proscia.


I went to the dept of correction a month ago to have it corrected. However, I have my GGM birth certificate and it says Angela --- they accepted the application and told me to wait. Today i received a letter saying the application was insufficient and I needed to supply their marriage certificate as well, this is a problem because on her marriage certificate it says Angelina.

I dont think New York will correct it since it is(technically) two different names on the forms I have to submit.

I am not sure where to go from here. Someone mentioned a court order name change, but im not sure how to go about that or if thats even possible being that my GGm is deceased.

I cant believe I have come so far to have this not work out!

-Stephanie

[johnnyonthespot]

The consulate should be reasonable about Angela vs. Angelina. The "ina" simply means "little" or "small" - a young girl might be called Angelina and then later Angela as an adult. Giuseppina / Giuseppa would be another example.

Sometimes one form or the other stuck; if Angelina was always called by that name, she may not have even been aware that her birth certificate said Angela. And vice-versa.

[SChiarini]

Thanks Carmine,

However, it is not the Consulate that is giving me trouble about Angelina vs Angela, It actually says on my GM birth certificate that her mothers name is "Lena" -which is obviously short for Angelina, but the consulate is giving me a hard time and wants it changed.

Now, Vital records is giving me a hard time because in order to change my Great grandmothers name on my grandmothers birth certificate I have to submit my GGM birth certificate and her marriage certificate.... that is where the two names - Angelina and Angela -- occur ... and I've asked vital records and they said I would probably need a court order.

[kontessa]

I would submit what vital records has asked for in the letter that you received, and wait for an official outcome in writing with further instructions. You need to obtain instructions/refusals, etc. in WRITING, not accept something someone tells you or warns you about in a phone conversation. (A written refusal is especially important if you do need to pursue a court order later on.)

A little off-topic, but this illustrates my point. I had to have a delayed birth record created in NYS for someone that never had one. I was told by everyone (attorney and state employees) that it wasn't possible. I went ahead and submitted documents along with an application for one anyway. I received a written response requesting additional documentation. (I was thrilled...they were actually considering it!) Every document that I already had on this supplemental list though, contained ridiculous errors or was lacking in specific data as to parents' names, etc.. I telephoned the state to discuss my options (with the people who originally told me none of this was possible). The individual on the phone just kept repeating for me to submit SOMETHING from the list, so I went ahead and submitted several documents from the list. They finally did create the birth record using documents from that list as evidence, even though each record contained errors (one even with a completely different last name for the mother).

Also, I had to obtain a court order to obtain documents from NYS, and my lawyer used the original rejection letters from vital records as evidence to support my need for the court order.

So...follow the instructions in the letter and wait for an official refusal with instructions/options on what you need to do next. Good luck.

[SChiarini]

Thanks Kontessa,

I will submit the documents regardless.

I'm thinking I might even include a sworn affidavit from my grandmother that her mother was known and used the names Angela and Angelina? What do you think?

[kontessa]

I'm not really sure affidavits hold much weight with vital records, but what do I know!! It sure can't hurt...send it along.

[jcat]

Once you have submitted her marriage certificate you should be ok,even though there are the name discrepancies, the birthdate should be sufficient in showing that this is the same person....

[SChiarini]

Thanks Jcat, however,

On one of the marriage certificate papers I have, it doesn't list her birthdate, it just shows her age... on the second one it shows the wrong birthdate

On her death certificate, it also reflects the wrong birthdate... this is why I had soo much trouble locating her birth certificate at her comune- because her real birthdate is a year and month off than when she listed it in the US.

ahhhh! Im thinking of maybe including my grandmothers baptismal certificate?

[SChiarini]

Hi all,

I resubmitted my documents, the birth certificate that says Angela and the marriage certificate that said Angelina- and as of yesterday it was rejected by Vital Records. They said I need a court ordered name change.

Does anyone have experience with this? I have no idea where to start in order to get my GGM name changed on my GM birth certificate.

What about hiring a lawyer to do this? Does anyone have a good lawyer in the NYC area? and would they be able to help with this discrepancy?

Thanks in advance!


**I also like to add that this name change was not done legally-- Angelina was a nickname and she used it on a few official documents

[jennabet]

Italians do use affectionate nick names but only amongst close family and friends. They always sign with the full, given name.

I had gotten used to signing my own name with just an initial for the middle name. But all that changed when I moved to Italy because just the initial was not acceptable. Now that I'm back in USA, I'm signing my full given name again and advising my fiancee to get used to doing the same because when he goes to Italy, the initial will not be acceptable. Only the name that is on your birth certificate is acceptable in Italy.

Actually, the British naming, signing conventions that are used in the USA are really conducive to crime. One would think that with all the identity theft taking place these days, people would sign with their full given names instead of initials and parents would stop naming kids after the parents and adding "jr", "III", etc.

Italians were always aware that no child should be given the same name as his mother or father. Since all latin countries do things the way Italy does things, I'm sure the Latino population in the USA, which will soon be the majority, won't fall into the British trap.

[kontessa]

Stephanie, I'm sorry that you weren't successful! Wow, I'm not sure what you should be doing next. I wish Javaislife would post, maybe she might have some good ideas.

What proof do you have for your GGM's correct names? (Even if you pursue the court order, you will need proof.) Do you have a SS application and Numident for your GM - these should include her parents' names. Is your GGM's name shown correctly on your GM's marriage documents (can't recall)? Did your GM have any other siblings, and if so, have you obtained copies of these records to see what your GGM's name is listed as? Is her name correct on any/all death records? Was her name correct on her own marriage record?

Could the problem be that you didn't provide enough proof to correct the record, and perhaps if you had more maybe you could attempt to amend the record again? Sorry I don't have a more concrete approach for what to do next.

[JavaisLife]

Hi Stephanie,

I'm sharing the url for my post about when I was asked to amending/correcting records from the Municipal Archives for NYC. I suggest reading the full thread:

http://italiangenealogy.tardio.com/Foru ... 20191.html

Short Recap:
You will not be able to change or amend a document from the archives. However, you can have the director Kenn Cobb write you a certified letter that states, record cannot be changed however after examining the document "X" is incorrect and should be "Y", etc. Listing all the necessary changes.

I received my documents back from Vital Records when I asked them to recreate and change my GF birth certificate. However, I was successful w/ having a marriage record from 1904 recreated into the system and amended. These two documents are from two different departments.

If you are going to have Kenn Cobb write you a letter, he may as well write you a letter for all documents from the archives. Have the letter notarized and appostilled - and if you care to do so, translated (as I did).

Good Luck!
Marie

[SChiarini]

Thank you Marie! I might try and get the certified letter from Ken Cobbs, for her Marriage certificate, however I think Vital Records have already washed their hands of my application because they sent me a notice that the next step would be to obtain a court order.

As for the other documents, I have a bc from Italy that says Angela, and a death certificate that says Angela, everything else that my mother can find sys Angelina.... she didn't have a deed, or will or drivers license and I believe her SS card says Angelina as well.

So now I am more concerned because if I do bring it in front of a judge ( which I've heard they almost always rule on the side of the agencies) what name do I ask for it to be changed to?

What confusion! Hoping someone can shed some more light.

[JavaisLife]

You will need to make your documents match what is on the Birth Certificate from Italy. In the eyes o the consulate the Italian document is what is correct. What year is the Death Certificate?

The Drivers License and SS card are not as "official" as her birth certificate.
As I just mention, her first known record is her birth certificate, so that is what is deemed as the first correct document. You'll change everything back to reflect what is on her birth certificate.

If it is a Municipal Achive document, then you can get a letter from director Kenn Cobb. If it's from Vital Records, you should be allowed to change to death certificate, by providing the original Birth Certificate translated into English.

You might not need to go the court order route. See my original thread. A document from Archibes can be "ammended" with a letter from Kenn Kobb. A documet from Vital Records can be corrected by Viyal Records - you may have confused Vital Records by saying you wanted to change an old Birth Certificate - which is why they denied you.

The court order route is expensive, and sometimes lawyers aren't sure how to do it. However, changing a death certificate is easier than altering a birth certificate in New York.

[SChiarini]

Hi Marie,

Thank you for your input. I appreciate knowing that I now how to change everything to reflect what is on her birth certificate. I am definitely trying to avoid the court order route!

The birth certificate of my GM is what I am trying to change, that is not in the municipal archives - however they told me they can only change one or two letters - not the whole name. As i've said my GGM put down

Lena Angelina when it should be Angela Ferrante
Lena Prosica when it should be Angela Prosica

In order to change it at Vital records I had to provide my GGM BC from Italy--which says Angela Ferrante -and her marriage certificate. However the marriage certificate (which says her name is Angelina Ferrante) is in the Muncipal archives and therefore cannot be changed.

I am wondering if I go to Ken Cobbs and ask him to provide a letter - and then send that in to Vital records if they would be able to change it .. I can try - however I feel as if they will deny it again as they explained they can't change a whole name, which I would need to do, they would only be able to change one or two letters.