Birth act - Irene Altobello

[researching]

I know you said the middle of the night Italian time, but you could have just worked nights or something. I got excited.

I'm in France. We drive through Italy all the time, but unfortunately, never way down south where my family is from. Maybe one day.

You guys have all helped me out a lot, so if you ever head over to Italy and can stop by France, please let me know. I'd be super happy to show you around and make you some French food.

Julie

[researching]

I know you said the middle of the night Italian time, but you could have just worked nights or something. I got excited.

I'm in France. We drive through Italy all the time, but unfortunately, never way down south where my family is from. Maybe one day.

You guys have all helped me out a lot, so if you ever head over to Italy and can stop by France, please let me know. I'd be super happy to show you around and make you some French food.

Julie

[AngelaGrace56]

I know you said the middle of the night Italian time, but you could have just worked nights or something. I got excited.

I'm in France. We drive through Italy all the time, but unfortunately, never way down south where my family is from. Maybe one day.

You guys have all helped me out a lot, so if you ever head over to Italy and can stop by France, please let me know. I'd be super happy to show you around and make you some French food.

Julie

Thank you for the very kind offer, Julie. That would be pretty amazing. I shall dream on. It's always a pleasure helping you and others, Julie. Just pay it forward if/when you can, and help make this world a better and kinder place.

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

Just one more thing, Julie.

I've been reading your "Nonno lied about his age forum" https://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/ ... logy/44041

and thinking about it. Maybe you could send a letter asking for your grandfather's Lista di Leva and Foglio Matricolare and give an approximate year range. The first military record that I wrote away for was for my Nonno, and because there were birth years missing online, I didn't know the exact year he was born in. I did know the town of birth and who his parents were, and I knew he had to be born some time between 1865 and 1870, so those were the range of years I gave i.e. "born 1865-1870". The archivist was really nice and looked for me and located his Lista di Leva. He was born 1869, so she looked through several years to find it. I know this isn't the norm, you should really state the birthdate – but thankfully I was able get my nonno's Lista di Leva by providing estimated years. It's worth a try.

All the best with that.

Angela

[researching]

I really appreciate all your help, so the offer to show you around my area of France is genuine. Don't just dream of it. I came here by accident, fell in love with a French man, and stayed. You never know.

As for the thing about my Nonno, I haven't sent the letter yet, because I'm just not sure if I should add something to it. When I read about requesting the records, it said it was a good way to find missing dates and family information and that you can just put an approximate date on it, which is helpful. I do know his date of birth and all of his information. He didn't talk much about the war, but he did say that he had to lie about his age. He was born in 1928, so the dates fit with the lie.

The stories I hear here in France are just awful and very different from what I heard in North America. The war museums that I've visited are very moving. They're always hard for me to visit, but I always do, because it's part of my history.

I think I will just request the records and see what happens. Do you know if it's better to send a written letter or to send it by email?

Thanks
Julie

[AngelaGrace56]

I really appreciate all your help, so the offer to show you around my area of France is genuine. Don't just dream of it. I came here by accident, fell in love with a French man, and stayed. You never know.

As for the thing about my Nonno, I haven't sent the letter yet, because I'm just not sure if I should add something to it. No don't add anything to it at this stage. Just keep it basic and see what comes back. The archivists are busy and they don't want to be bothered reading anything extra. They just want to know the name, town, birthdate, parents' names. If you like I'll post here what I wrote when I requested my nonno's record. It was pretty blunt and basic. It was quite different to the letter I wrote when requesting records for other family members. When I read about requesting the records, it said it was a good way to find missing dates and family information and that you can just put an approximate date on it, which is helpful. I do know his date of birth and all of his information. He didn't talk much about the war, but he did say that he had to lie about his age. He was born in 1928, so the dates fit with the lie.

The stories I hear here in France are just awful and very different from what I heard in North America. The war museums that I've visited are very moving. They're always hard for me to visit, but I always do, because it's part of my history.

I think I will just request the records and see what happens. Do you know if it's better to send a written letter or to send it by email?

Thanks
Julie

I've always sent an initial email to the State Archives with my requests. They usually take about a month to get back to me, letting me know that they have found the info, and requesting I send them an amount for copying and postage. I usually send them the money in cash, concealed in a little envelope, and write a letter and a card to say thank you. They always send me the relevant document by snailmail which can take about six weeks to arrive. Usually the whole process from when I write my initial email, to when my documents arrive, (in an enveloped covered with beautiful Italian stamps) takes about three months. I was absolutely estatic when my nonno's document arrived. I had known very little about him, as he had died when my father was 3 yrs old, so dad didn't remember him. The Lista di Leva helped to fill in some gaps. (This isn't always the case though because when I asked for another Lista di Leva it told me nothing that I didn't already know from my own research.)

They will possibly ask you to send them ID.

I can see that it is getting late there, so will get back to you later, time permitting, about one or two other things you have said here to do with the war. Best to you.

Angela

[researching]

Thanks Angela, that's very helpful.

They seem to take their time in Italy. I regularly have to request my birth act, because they're only valid for three months here and you always need to provide one for some reason or another. They usually take a while to get here. Keep in mind that it takes ONE DAY for mail to get from Italy to France. ONE DAY!

My husband and I both needed one for something. He requested his from France on the same day that I requested mine from Italy. His came a week later, but no sign of mine. I sent letters, emails, and I phoned the commune. No answer at all. I even tried to contact the consulate. Nothing. I ended up sending a second request which also seemed not to get an answer. By the time my birth act finally arrived, my husband's had expired.

I spoke to my parents last night about my grandfather. They confirmed that it was indeed the army and not the fascist youth. I also found out that he was hit by shrapnel and spent time in POW camp in Germany. I don't know which one, but I do know that they fed the Italians spaghetti with jam to make fun of them. I actually wonder if that was more nourishing than what the others ate.

Julie

[bbivona]

I don't know why I have so many problems with posts that don't post. Am I the only one?

If I just click the "submit" button my post often doesn't go. I've found that if I click "preview" and go to that screen first then click submit, I have no problem with the posts not going.

[researching]

I'll give that a try, thanks. Sometimes I click preview by accident though and I lose everything I've written.

Julie

[AngelaGrace56]

When I read about requesting the records, it said it was a good way to find missing dates and family information and that you can just put an approximate date on it, which is helpful.
Thanks
Julie

From the Liste di Leva that I have requested for my two nonni, father and others, and from helping with translations here on the forum, the following is what I have observed:

"Usually" the Lista di Leva (Draft List) includes conscript's full name, names of both parents, date of birth, town of residence, town of birth, conscript's occupation, conscript's education/ability to read and write.

His "class", i.e. Year of Birth – Conscripts were grouped in their year of birth. Normally the lists were put together from either civil birth records or baptism records. (.... which means that providing your nonno's parents registered him at birth, his name should be included within the Class of his birth year, regardless of whether he turned up or not.

The military examination which takes place includes the following info:

Height (a lot of young men were rejected because of their "lack of" height)
Colour of hair, and whether straight, curly etc
Colour of eyes
Colour of skin
Condition of teeth
Any noticeable/distinguishing visual marks e.g scars etc
Chest Measurement

Decisions made e.g.
Enabled for military service or not and reason why
Reason for any postponement
Some times a brother was substituted for whatever reason
Other decisons made

He didn't talk much about the war, but he did say that he had to lie about his age.
Thanks
Julie

They seldom did talk about their time in the war. Usually, if they didn't come back physcially damaged, they certainly came back mentally and emotionally damaged. Why would you want to revisit a painful time by retelling the story, especially such a young person who should have really been at home playing soccer or whatever.

I spoke to my parents last night about my grandfather. They confirmed that it was indeed the army and not the fascist youth. I also found out that he was hit by shrapnel and spent time in POW camp in Germany. I don't know which one, but I do know that they fed the Italians spaghetti with jam to make fun of them. I actually wonder if that was more nourishing than what the others ate.
Julie

If you have a photo of your grandfather in uniform, why not post it here. People here are really good at identifying uniforms.

If he was a POW you may be able to request his POW records. I think that some are actually on line now. You use to be able to request them from the Red Cross, which is where I got my dad's from, but I don't think they are providing this service anymore.

Anyways, all for now. Sorry it has taken a while to get back to you. The weekends are usually busy for me with family etc.

Best to you.

Angela

[researching]

Thanks Angela, this is great.

I can't find the picture I had of my Nonno in uniform, but I've asked my parents to send me a copy. I had it restored for him years ago, because he had carried it in his wallet forever. He said it was the best gift he'd ever gotten. That is a memory I'll cherish forever.

His POW records are not online. I did request them from the Red Cross, but they've reached their quota for requests at this time and have asked that I try again next trimester. I have set a reminder on my calendar. If I end up in Geneva before then, I'll see if I can take a look myself.

The thing about the lista di leva is that the he would have been called AFTER the war. I'm going to request it anyway, but I doubt it will help. I'm more interested in any records they may have of his time during the war. I know so little about it.

Thanks again,
Julie

[AngelaGrace56]

Happy to help, Julie. All the best with requesting the POW records and Lista di Leva. If you haven't already sent the email you should also ask for the "ruolo matricolare" and "any other military documents that may exist". Let us know how you get on.

I was volunteering at a Family Search Affiliate Library during the week and found Irene Altobello's Death Record. No suprises, everything is as was indexed at Family Search. She was 28 years when she died, etc....... Here it is, to add to your files. (I've had to resize it, so I hope it is still readable.)

Angela

Death Record NO 590: Irene Altobello

[researching]

Wow, thanks Angela. I wish I had access to this stuff in my area.

Julie

[AngelaGrace56]

Wow, thanks Angela. I wish I had access to this stuff in my area.

Julie

Yes, we are so fortunate. It's wonderful that more records are being digitized all the time. Years ago, like so many of us here, we had to order microfilms from Salt Lake City and then view them on microfilm readers. The old microfilm readers were not that great. I was fortunate that the library I ordered my films to had a modern microfilm reader, which I was permitted to use, and from which I could save the images to a usb stick. I'm so glad I didn't have to use the old clunky thing that was and still is there.

Angela

[researching]

Yes, I can't imagine doing that.