Having problems with the Italian language? Do you need help to translate or understand an old family document? There is always someone who can help you!
stfrancis wrote: 30 Jun 2019, 23:03
Thanks, I know it's quite a challenge...and it gets more difficult. But at least we have some names.
I believe the parish is Sant'Elpidio. The name is Dell' Belsamo ( a "dite" name I assume)
Do you see before Caterina Rago's name, Ste. Romane..??? other words preceding are also difficult...
After the first signature, can you read any of the postscript at the bottom...?
Thanks
I think the part by Caterina's name has to do with the marriage being celebrated according to the Roman Rite, or the rite of the Roman Catholic church. It has nothing to do with Caterina's name. I can't figure out the handwritten section of the document. I'm also glad you have the name of the parish, and I also see what looks like the word Aversano/a after the abbreviation and Elpidio.
I'm not sure what Aversano/a is, it looks like it could be a surname common to that area, (there is also a commune in Salerno named Aversana but it's unrelated).
Anyway, we made more progress than I thought...I will try to post more tonight or tomorrow, but the document becomes worse to read.
Thank you for helping.
One last thing for tonight-I can't read pdf 5 and pdf 6 is the death record for Caterina di Rago who died on Oct 4, 1701, wife of Fabrizio di Balsamo. Buried in the church of S Giacomo. The information is from the book of deaths, 1701, in S. Giacomo of Pollena. Normally these records say the deceased has received all of the Sacraments, which would be Confession, the Eucharist, and the last rites, or extreme unction. I don't think they are listed in this record though, but I do see the word for sacraments there. Also her approximate age at death is given, but I'm not sure what that number is supposed to be. There are also some words between the first name Caterina, and the surname di Rago, but I have no idea what they are.
I think Caterina di Rago's age of death was about 40.
The other thing is what I believe is a Neapolitan dialect word which appears between Caterina's first and last names in the document -nennella-which is the diminutive of the word nenne-and which I found means bambina or ragazza (a female baby-or girl). I think the document is saying that she was without children.
What script is this, is it just a Neopolitan dialect or is there some Latin in there...?
Thank you Erudita, I see you are persistent. You are doing GREAT, I appreciate it. I know it can be frustrating, as the words are for the most part, clearly visible but difficult to understand. We can deal with the missing details after.
I need a lot of time with these two documents but, as far as I can determine, each is a document concerning the free state of the prospective spouse to marry-that is, indicating that each is not already married to someone else, not a member of a religious order and, for the groom, without military obligations. I can see that Fabrizio has lived in Pollena since he was 13 years of age. He was originally from Massa di Somma. The bride's record says something about her being age 19 and her being from Naples, but I have more work to do on that one.
I see Latin words in the document, and other words are probably Neopolitan dialect (sorry but I don't know any dialects), and there are also many Italian words in the document which I know as standard Italian (that I learned studying the language at the university level), although the Tuscan dialect did not become standard Italian until the unification of Italy (a process which began in 1861 and took some 10 years to complete)
I just am back from power walking several miles and need to get into the shower and do some other chores in my house. Luckily, but not for me, my exercise classes are currently cancelled, due to the roof damage our rec center bldg sustained in last Friday's storm. Multi-tasking, as always. Be back at some point later.
By the way, all of these records are extracted copies of the originals, which is why we see the date of July of 1702 on all of them.
Pdf 7-This is a document about the free state of the groom:
Fabrizio di Balzamo, of the hamlet of Massa Somma, but from the age of 13 from the hamlet of Pollena, son of Gennaro (Balzamo) and Giovanna Fierro, has attested to his free state for his matrimony with Caterina Vicedomini.
He says he isn’t related to her, she isn’t his godmother,* a daughter (in other words, a relative in any degree which would prove an obstacle to his marriage to her). I think the next line is indicating that he has no military or religious obligation which would prove an obstacle to him marrying, as I see the word religious there.
The record mentions that he had been married to Caterina di Rago, in the parochial church of S. Elipidio, diocese of Averna, for 16 years, until her death in Pollena, where they had been living for 10 months. She was buried in the parish church of the hamlet of Pollena and, after she died, he hadn’t taken another wife, and he hasn’t been promised to any other person other than the stated Caterina Vicedomini. I think his age in the document is given as 30.
*as to Caterina Vicedomini not being his godmother-it was believed that a kinship relationship was established between a child and his godparent at baptism so, unless a dispensation was gotten, the marriage between two individuals in that type of relationship was basically not permitted by the Catholic church.
Pdf 8-the bride's free state document-
Caterina Vicedomini, from the city of Naples, where she continues to live, daughter of Francesco (Vicedomini) and Teresa di Maria. Age 19. She's attesting to her free state for her marriage with Fabrizio di Balzano (looks like an "n" and not an "m" in his surname) who is not her relative, her godfather, her son. I believe she also states that she is not a member of a religious order. She attests that she doesn't have a husband in the city of Naples or in any other place.
One point I'm not clear on. He was living in Pollena since age 13, and he married Rago in 1686 in San'Arpino. They lived together in Pollena for only 10 months. So living in Pollena since age 13, is only a figure of speech, he was not there all that intervening time.
Also I assume since he couldnt marry before 18, he would be born before 1668 (as opposed to 1672) ?
Here, here ! Yes, what was done here in one day, is more than I could have accomplished in 1 month or more. Not to mention, I was just beating my head against a wall.
We are lucky to have you as volunteers, so willing and knowledgeable. And during a very busy time for Erudita.
Not doing well at all with pdf 9 and 10. I see reference to Fabrizio's free state again, to there being no church related impediments to the upcoming marriage, again there is reference to the death of Caterina di Rago, but I can't figure out what kind of document(s) these two pages are. So I'll have to get back to them at some point, but need to pass on these for the time being.
I haven't tried to sort out any of the info like dates in relation to ages, etc. For now, I'm only concerned with trying to decipher the handwriting, figure out the abbreviations, and extract the content that I believe is in the records. Then we can go back and try to sort everything out and see where there are discrepancies.
If you want to post any additional pages, go ahead and do so. Posting two at a time is fine for me. I'm also hoping that one of the native Italian volunteers will review them.
Recap and clarification of some things now that I have reviewed all the documents to date. Take note of the corrections concerning pdf 7:
1. Caterina Vecedomini born Feb 22, 1684. Parents: Francesco Vecedomini and Teresa di Maria (Church of St Michelarcangelo all'Arena-pdf 1
2. same church-banns of marriage posted during the solemn Mass for the matrimony of Caterina Vecedomini and Fabrizio di Balzamo, widower, living in Pollana; This Caterina was Neapolitan and of this parish-no impediments resulting from the bans-July 21, 1702 (she was age 18 at marriage based on her baptism date)-no age for Fabrizio pdf 2
3. Church of S Giacomo in the hamlet of Pollana-banns of marriage for Fabrizio, widower living in my parish for a long time (according to the priest there) and Caterina Vicedomini, of the city of Naples pdf 3
4. Parish of S Elpidio (diocese of Aversana-which is the Latin word for Aversa)-parish is in Sant'Arpino in Caserta-bk of matrimony-Oct 19. 1686 marriage of Fabrizio d'Audan (???) alias delli Balsamo, son of Gennaro (same surname as son) and Giovanna Fierro of the hamlet Massa de Somma (naples). The marriage was contracted according to the holy Roman rite with Caterina de Rago, daughter of Carlo Antonio de Rago and Giulia de Serio of this parish
pdf 5 is the end of pdf 4 record-still can't decipher it
pdf 6-parish priest of church of S Giacomo hamlet of Pollana, bk of deaths-Oct 4, 1701 death of Caterina di Rago, age 40 (so born about 1661); wife of Fabrizio di Balsamo, received all of the sacraments; buried in church of S Giacomo
pdf 7-appears to be a judicial record-here's the clarification-Fabrizio wasn't living in Pollana from age 13 BUT rather for 13 years (this makes more sense, as then he would have moved there with first wife Caterina de Rago three years after they married in 1686 (or they moved there in 1689); the other clarification is that Caterina di Rago was deceased about 10 months by July of 1702, which makes more sense as well, since we know when she died in 1701
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