Hi,
If one of my records have someone listed as Nob or Nobilis so and so, would I surmise that his father would have a Nob before his name in records going backwards? I notice going forward the children do not carry this Nob before their name. In going back (dates) should I look for Nob before the father's name or not necessarily?
Thank you for your input.
Jefferie (jrbak)
Question regarding Nob and lineage;need input
Re: Question regarding Nob and lineage;need input
Jefferie
From what I've read concerning this title, it was transmitted to descendants, who were legitimate and natural, and of both sexes. So I would assume that his father had the title, if he did, and so would any of his descendants, regardless of sex, as long they were his natural children or legitimate. However, we are dealing with church records in which the priests arbitrarily decided on their content, so the title may be missing in the records, either going back in time, or going forward.
Erudita
From what I've read concerning this title, it was transmitted to descendants, who were legitimate and natural, and of both sexes. So I would assume that his father had the title, if he did, and so would any of his descendants, regardless of sex, as long they were his natural children or legitimate. However, we are dealing with church records in which the priests arbitrarily decided on their content, so the title may be missing in the records, either going back in time, or going forward.
Erudita
Re: Question regarding Nob and lineage;need input
Dear Erudita (Erudita74),
Thank you ever so much for your comments pertaining to the Nob. I am waiting to see the answer to the possible death record of Nob Giovanni Battista Nigro(a) to make sure this is my Giovanni. I posted the record again today as it was never answered. The Nob is confirmed already in a prior record of my 7th great grandfather, Petri Antonio.
There are a few Latin names before Nob Giovanni's name in the record that I do not know if these are a part of his record or someone else's. There are many names here listed for death. The reason this record is important is that there are missing marriage records for the period of time in which he would have been listed.
Also, I needed to know if this (Nob) title went back to the other father's because I think I found Giovanni Battista's baptismal record in 1615. It is later than the (septuagenarian- would be abt. 1608) that is shown on the death record but those times were approximate, I believe anyway. Here it does not show a title Nob, but says, Giovanni Battista filius (son of) Petri and Libere? , spouses Nigro. I am posting this record today as well. So I am grateful that you explained that the priests may or may not have entered the title. That helps. My 7th great grandfather was Petri Antonio so this may fall in line with my possible 9th great grandfather's name being Petri. Going back (dates) it seems to get harder to trace at least for me. I hope these paragraphs make sense.
I am so grateful for your help.
Jefferie (jrbak)
Thank you ever so much for your comments pertaining to the Nob. I am waiting to see the answer to the possible death record of Nob Giovanni Battista Nigro(a) to make sure this is my Giovanni. I posted the record again today as it was never answered. The Nob is confirmed already in a prior record of my 7th great grandfather, Petri Antonio.
There are a few Latin names before Nob Giovanni's name in the record that I do not know if these are a part of his record or someone else's. There are many names here listed for death. The reason this record is important is that there are missing marriage records for the period of time in which he would have been listed.
Also, I needed to know if this (Nob) title went back to the other father's because I think I found Giovanni Battista's baptismal record in 1615. It is later than the (septuagenarian- would be abt. 1608) that is shown on the death record but those times were approximate, I believe anyway. Here it does not show a title Nob, but says, Giovanni Battista filius (son of) Petri and Libere? , spouses Nigro. I am posting this record today as well. So I am grateful that you explained that the priests may or may not have entered the title. That helps. My 7th great grandfather was Petri Antonio so this may fall in line with my possible 9th great grandfather's name being Petri. Going back (dates) it seems to get harder to trace at least for me. I hope these paragraphs make sense.
I am so grateful for your help.
Jefferie (jrbak)
Re: Question regarding Nob and lineage;need input
You're very welcome, Jefferie. Yes, it is definitely harder to trace the lines as you go further back with the church records. I find it disappointing, in fact, as there is such limited info in a lot of the very early church records. But, again, it was at the discretion of the individual priests as to what info they included in their records. The Council of Trent in the mid 1500s only dictated to the local parishes that they had to record vital events taking place in their parishes and did not dictate what specific info they had to include in their records. Your records are also particularly difficult since those of unrelated individuals are grouped together.
Erudita
Erudita
Re: Question regarding Nob and lineage;need input
Dear Erudita (Erudita74),
I know it is a bit early yet as the records for Piverone go to the late 1500's and I will research back as far as I can but I was wondering if you could answer this question. Where do we go from here; that is where would the next level of records be. I had looked at Turin (the regional) but they did not have records that went further back than the ones in Piverone. That was a surprise to me. You may have come across this situation before so thought I would ask. This may be a history question as well to see what territory Piverone was in at that time or what was happening at that period of time in history? Thank you so much for all of your commentary as it is most helpful.
Jefferie (jrbak)
I know it is a bit early yet as the records for Piverone go to the late 1500's and I will research back as far as I can but I was wondering if you could answer this question. Where do we go from here; that is where would the next level of records be. I had looked at Turin (the regional) but they did not have records that went further back than the ones in Piverone. That was a surprise to me. You may have come across this situation before so thought I would ask. This may be a history question as well to see what territory Piverone was in at that time or what was happening at that period of time in history? Thank you so much for all of your commentary as it is most helpful.
Jefferie (jrbak)
Re: Question regarding Nob and lineage;need input
Jefferie,
I am not familiar with the history of that region, but the following from familysearch.org may provide you with an explanation. Unfortunately, I doubt you will be able to get further back with the church records.
"In general, the church began keeping records in 1563 because of reforms proclaimed at the Council of Trent. Not all parishes conformed until much later. Most parishes have kept registers from about 1595 to the present. A few parishes kept records as early as the 1300s. The church records of Palermo, for example, start about 1350, and the baptistry in Firenze has records from the early 1400s."
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/It ... ch_Records
I am not familiar with the history of that region, but the following from familysearch.org may provide you with an explanation. Unfortunately, I doubt you will be able to get further back with the church records.
"In general, the church began keeping records in 1563 because of reforms proclaimed at the Council of Trent. Not all parishes conformed until much later. Most parishes have kept registers from about 1595 to the present. A few parishes kept records as early as the 1300s. The church records of Palermo, for example, start about 1350, and the baptistry in Firenze has records from the early 1400s."
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/It ... ch_Records
Re: Question regarding Nob and lineage;need input
Dear Erudita (Erudita74),
Thank you so much for following up on my question. I am so happy for those in Palermo and elsewhere where they may go back further- that would be exciting for them. I will look at the history if I can find something on it just to see when Piverone may have come to be etc. Thank you for the explanation about records from early and the Council of Trent. I will also take the time to look this up as well as I should know this. Thank you again for all of your help.
Always grateful,
Jefferie (jrbak)
Thank you so much for following up on my question. I am so happy for those in Palermo and elsewhere where they may go back further- that would be exciting for them. I will look at the history if I can find something on it just to see when Piverone may have come to be etc. Thank you for the explanation about records from early and the Council of Trent. I will also take the time to look this up as well as I should know this. Thank you again for all of your help.
Always grateful,
Jefferie (jrbak)
