Help finding immigration record and 1915 and 1920 censuses

[lyn1982]

Can anyone help me find the immigration record, or 1915 or 1920 censuses for my great grandfather Joseph Abbo (possible original surname was Ebbo or even Abballe). He was born on Dec 23, 1896 according to most documents (his ww1 draft reg which I'm 90% sure is him says Saptember 25, 1894).) He immigrated in 1913 according to his obituary and lived in Lyons, NY for 2 years before moving to Niagara Falls, NY. I can find no trace of him anywhere before his 1917 draft reg and 1918 marriage. He is listed as living at 1018 grove ave in 1925 census under the surname Bbeebe with his wife and children. He is listed at living at 1016 Grove Ave in his 1918 marriage record. I checked manually and he and his family are not anywhere on Grove Ave in the 1920 census. His wifes family is there as they were in 1925 and 1915 censuses (but his wife isn't).

I did find a 1913 immigration record that was close to matching, but the information on it (wrong marital status, fathers name and age bout 10 years off) makes me believe it's more likely to be a cousin of his. I do have a lot of documents for him, but have searched extensively, with all kinds of variations on dates and names, and not found any of these 3 records. I'm at a brick wall and in need of someone very good at this to help. Here are all my records regarding him and people I believe may be siblings (they might not be): https://www.rootsfinder.com/tree/70988/ ... -W2P7-C7N2 If there's anyone who could help me find these missing records (especially where he was in 1915 census) I believe it might help me finally tear down this brick wall.

[suanj]

Hi on the your provided link, the Birth record I believe is referred to this Giuseppe Abballe born in Monte San Giovanni Campano, father Luigi arrived on 1912
First Name : Giuseppe
Last Name : Abbelle
Nationality : Italy, Italian South
Last Place of Residence : M.S.Giov Camp., Roma
Date of Arrival : April 25th, 1912
Age at Arrival : 17y
Gender : Male
Marital Status : Single
Ship of Travel : Prinzess Irene
Port of Departure : Naples
Manifest Line Number : 0021

https://www.jewishgen.org/databases/EID ... =passenger
but on the marriage license, his father was Domenico and his mother was Maria Paris, so the Birth record match with the arrival record of this onther Giuseppe Abballe, but IS NOT YOUR ancestor, I believe that is another person with same name. Moreover your Giuseppe seeming born in Alatri, no in Monte San Giovanni Campano.
Best regards,
suanj

[lyn1982]

Thank you for the reply,

I hadn't seen that record before. This is the record I've seen https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JNY3-K47 so looks like their may be 3 people with this name, if my ancestors surname was originally Abballe.

I think my Giuseppe could have been born in M.S. Giovanni Campano (or just have cousins and have last lived there perhaps). However my reasons for thinking so are based off what could be circumstantial evidence. There is a Thomas Abballe who lived in Rochester, NY which is less than an hour away from Lyons NY, which is where my ancestor's obituary says he lived for 2 years after immigrating in 1913. Well this Thomas on his marriage record lists his father as Domenico Abballe and Maria Samori as his mother. Though the surnames do differ a bit (my ancestor's mothers surname was Paris), I wonder if the 2 could be brothers in spite of the differing surnames. On their SS card AP's Joseph lists his mother as Maria Pretain and Thomas lists his mother as Maria Simone. So I wonder if perhaps they just didn't know their mother's surname.

Joseph's surname that he stuck with is Abbo, though it seems he used Ebbo in his 1918 marriage record and Abol in what I believe may be his 1917 draft record. So I'm not 100% sure his original surname is Abballe.

This Thomas also states his birth place as Rome on his SS card AP (which my ancestors obituary states as his birth place). However this Thomas has a passenger manifest where he is leaving from https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J6GV-FYZ Monte San Giovanni Campano. Leaving behind mother Maria and arriving in 1921, which matches the info on his marriage record and the arrival year on his censuses. I have a topic in the main forum asking for help whether determining they are in fact brothers or not. My thinking is their parents moved around a lot and finding their births will take quite a bit more effort. But I could be completely off base with my theory of them being brothers.

[suanj]

I wouldn't think about these things much, they don't have a particular interest, because they are deductions based on data of which we don't know if they are 100% perfect and real…
Instead, searching from 1880 to 1898 in the military draft lists, in the Frosinone provincial archive, I cannot find your Giuseppe. I searched by Abballe, Abbali, Abbate, Abbafati, and also Babbo surnames and no luck..
because many men don't made the military service, resulting to be in "America", Giuseppe, if went in USA on 1913, he was 19 old, and sure he was drafted and left Italy, as many Young italians, just not to do military service…

So your Giuseppe must be in the list… the fact that we cannot find the arrival, let me think that no all data stated in USA are true… I am positive abt the parent's names on the marriage record… but some other info could be no true… also the birthdate.. a discrepance! And or Alatri or Monte San Giovanni Campano, both are of Frosinone province and the his name must be on…
I will try again…
Best regards
suanj

[suanj]

Here the military draft, available years in Frosinone provincial archive http://www.archiviodistatofrosinone.ben ... atricolari
suanj

[lyn1982]

Thank you for replying again,

That seems like a great resource! I don't know much about pdf files I'm gonna try to see if I can paste it into openoffice to organize it for easier browsing.

Instead, searching from 1880 to 1898 in the military draft lists, in the Frosinone provincial archive, I cannot find your Giuseppe.

Would this mean he was likely born in Roma providence then? Are there draft lists for Roma too? Even though most documents seem to indicate Frosinone, the obituary does state he was born in Rome, Italy. Though his birth record isn't there in the A's or E's in 1896 or nearby years. But perhaps it's somewhere in Roma providence, nearby but not in the city of Rome.

So your Giuseppe must be in the list… the fact that we cannot find the arrival, let me think that no all data stated in USA are true… I am positive abt the parent's names on the marriage record… but some other info could be no true… also the birthdate.. a discrepance!

Do you think the 1917 draft record of Giuseppe Abol in Niagara is mine too? I'm only 80% sure it is. I did browse on fold3 for Niagara County and Wayne county records and could find nothing else close to matching. It's his place of employment I believe, but I think tons of people worked there. It also has the birthplace of Sacro Rome, which is close to what other documents state. However, I can't understand why if it's him the birthdate would be completely different. September 25, 1894 and December 23, 1896, different month, date and year so seems unlikely to be a transcription error. On December 22, 1918 on his marriage record he lists age as 23. https://www.ancestry.com/mediaui-viewer ... PUBJs=true If the 1896 birthdate is correct, he should be a day short of his 22nd birthday so should be 21, not 23, unless my math is wrong. So perhaps the 1894 date is the correct one. Why would he later give the same fake birthdate on multiple documents though? I can see no reason for that.

I'm confused about the parent's names on the marriage certificate. I wonder why he lists his surname as Abbo yet father's name as Ebbo. More odd to me is him listing his mother's name as Mary. His wife lists her mother as Maria. I'd wondered if that could mean his mother was of English descent or immigrated or why it would be Mary and not Maria.

Also, in hopes of finding siblings, I recently searched Rome birth record indexes by year for the years after his birth (the 10 year indexes are missing lots of records, best to search by year) and found 1 interesting record in 1903. A child with the surname Abbo, but it is not their only surname! They seem to have 2 (or 3?) surnames, Abbo and Della Piano? (not sure spelling). This Abbo doesn't have a father of Domenico tho nor a mother of Mary, so not sure it's even related to mine.
http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... gpi_odx8oA
I couldn't find their marriage record but I think I found the father's 2nd marriage record here: http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0 I can't make out the names of the places of birth. I think one might be Genova tho, if so I checked there before for Giuseppe's birth, only because when I searched I discovered a lot of Abbo's came from there. From what I can tell from parents names it looks like he took both Abbo name and his mother's surname for whatever odd reason. (illegitimate birth maybe?).

I did go back to 1896 birth index records and Rome and sadly couldn't find my Giuseppe listed under surname Della Piano? Or Della P anything, so perhaps it's nothing to do with mine. Though this record does make me wonder if my Giuseppe could have had 2 surnames as well and be actually listed under the other surname, not Della Piano though at least not in 1896 Rome. Is there any way to search the military drafts for the surname Abbo? I know they can likely be organized by surname, but I assume I'd need to do a search through all of them for if the surname pops up after another surname. Or perhaps I'm completely chasing a wild goose here.

His SS card App, of course, does mention Aladri. However, birth records for the year 1896 are missing in Alatri. Though I did do a check from 1880 till 1896 for his parent's marriage record and found nothing. I'd think if he had been born there his parent's marriage would be there as well.

It's so odd that there seems to be no trace of him before he was in the US nor no immigration record. What documentation was required to board a ship back around 1913? Could he have given completely false info and gotten away with it? I can't see any reason why he would have, but as his records don't seem to be anywhere and as it seems he might have been using a fake birthdate, I'm not sure what other explanation there is.

[lyn1982]

Here the military draft, available years in Frosinone provincial archive http://www.archiviodistatofrosinone.ben ... atricolari
suanj

Thank you for looking before! How do I sort the columns? I can't seem to figure it out and when I tried to convert it to excel it wanted me to pay.

Also it won't let me edit my previous post. Love this site, but hate the lack of ability to edit past a certain time. So just wanted to correct, I meant it was Sacrofano that didn't have birth records for 1896. Alatri I believe did and I didn't find my ancestors birth there.

Also, I did find Thomas Abballe in the military records. Can't find mine though. Maybe if I can organize it tho I can look at all the Giuseppe's and see if any have father Domenico. Still no idea if Thomas is related to mine or not. The locations seem weird though the way they are listed for him. I think he was born in M.S. Giovanni Campano and it says that but the way it's positioned I can't tell if it's next to his name or the next person. Uploading image to show. It's weird the person below him would just happen to be born where I'm pretty sure Thomas came from, yet it seems to be saying that and Thomas's area of birth seems to be blank. Wish M.S. Giovanni Campano had records of 1903 births online. I looked for Joseph's in the 1890s but the records didn't go up to 1903 for Thomas. Oddly Thomas's mothers maiden name is listed as Limoni here, not Samori or Simone like he states on his records nor Paris or Pretrain like Joseph states on his. If Thomas was born in M.S. Giovanni rather then just lived there, than I think that makes it less likely that him and my Joseph are brothers. Seems their simularities with both living in Western NY and both stating they were born in Rome, and parents having same first names may just be a coinsidence. That sucks cause I thought this was a pretty good lead.

[suanj]

This link is abt a female baby named Maria Ottavia ABBO DELLA PINA http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... gpi_odx8oA
the father was Edmondo ABBO DELLA PINA so it is no pertaining…
suanj

[suanj]

In this research, there are too many problems, but the main one is the Italian spelling of the LAST NAME. The place of origin: Alatri, Rome, Sacrofano (formerly Scrofano), Monte San Giovanni Campano ... but it is very confusing ... the place of birth could be found, and so the arrival, but it is necessary to know precisely the spelling of the surname.
Apparently ABBALLE is not. Needless to look in the province of Frosinone, it's just a waste of time. It is useless to look for brothers or cousins based on inferred data, it is only a waste of time. I searched in the ten-year index in Scrofano (current Sacrofano) and I didn't find Giuseppe, nor even a surname that comes close…
just De Fabbi or D'Alberti

http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0

The arrival year? By censuses or by petition of naturalization? Was naturalized Giuseppe?
Best regards,
suanj

[suanj]

at 1014 Grove Ave, WWI draft registration card taken on jun 1917, a Joseph BONE(?) born in Roma, Italy, on oct 1895, single, alien
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1968530

Instead the your find
Name
Joseph F Abol
Event Type
Draft Registration
Event Date
1917-1918
Event Place
Niagara Falls, Niagara, New York, United States
Event Place (Original)
United States, New York, Niagara Falls City
Gender
Male
Birth Date
25 Sep 1894
Birthplace
Scro, Rome, Italy
Citizenship Place
Italy

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1968530
suanj

[lyn1982]

The place of origin: Alatri, Rome, Sacrofano (formerly Scrofano), Monte San Giovanni Campano

MS Giovanni Campano is only based on the Thomas I found that I thought could be a brother, so if he's not I guess just the first 3 are places mine mentioned. From all the names it seems the closest match is Monte Sacro Alto, which is a quarter in the city of Rome. However his birth record doesn't appear to be in the A's or E's in Rome 1890s. I don't have any idea what the surname could be if it's not something begining with an A or E or even something simular sounding. I think I saw some records with Febbo surname but I thought I checked under that surname too. Perhaps I didn't though, I'll have to go back later and do so. I've even tried to find his parents marriage record in Rome and it's not in the indexes either.

the place of birth could be found, and so the arrival, but it is necessary to know precisely the spelling of the surname.

I actually used this site https://stevemorse.org/ellis2/ellisgold.html to search for all Italian Giuseppe's born in 1896 arriving in 1913, coming from Rome and the other towns and none had a surname even close. Perhaps if I redo it with the 1894 birth year I'll find him?

The arrival year? By censuses or by petition of naturalization? Was naturalized Giuseppe?

He wasn't naturalized, at least according to 1930 and 1940 censuses he wasn't. The arrival year is from his obituary. It says he arrived to the US in 1913 and lived for 2 years in Lyon's NY before moving to Niagara Falls. In addiction to not finding his immigration record, I can't find any trace of him in Lyons. I even asked a cousin who is a grandchildren of his if they knew anything about where he was from in Italy and they didn't. Only info I got was that he had a brother who stayed in Italy. All Josephs children are deceased for at least a decade, most longer so can't even ask any of them. The earliest record I can be 100% sure if Joseph is his Dec 1918 marriage record. Then after that he doesn't pop up again until the 1925 census, under the surname Bbeebe.

[suanj]

I have already sought his arrival, using every possible search escamotage, and no appreciable results.
It is a mystery…
suanj

[lyn1982]

at 1014 Grove Ave, WWI draft registration card taken on jun 1917, a Joseph BONE(?) born in Roma, Italy, on oct 1895, single, alien
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1968530

Instead the your find
Name
Joseph F Abol
Event Type
Draft Registration
Event Date
1917-1918
Event Place
Niagara Falls, Niagara, New York, United States
Event Place (Original)
United States, New York, Niagara Falls City
Gender
Male
Birth Date
25 Sep 1894
Birthplace
Scro, Rome, Italy
Citizenship Place
Italy

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1968530
suanj

Thank you! I don't understand how the surname changed from Bone to Abbo though if that's him! They don't even sound the same. But Grove Ave, and being born in Rome, Italy, that seems too much to be a coinsidence right? Though I did notice something extremly odd when I searched WW1 draft records on ancestry before by address. I searched either 1016 or 1018 Grove Ave (He and his wife have been associated with both) and I came up with several Josephs living at that address in Niagara. At least 3 of them born in Italy, but there were others born in Poland, etc. All different surnames and birthdates, nothing close to Abbo or simular. But I can't figure out why so many would be listed as living at that address when in census it doesn't seem to have been in boarding house in 1915 or 1920. It's very bizzare, I think there was more than a dozen Josephs living at that address who registed for the draft. It may have nothing to do with mine even but I'm still curious either way. edit: not finding more then 2 now. I did save 3 of the ones from Italy before though that were all Josephs from the same Grove Ave address born in Italy.

[lyn1982]

These are all the Giuseppe's who state their race as Italian coming from Rome between 1911-1918 born between 1893-1897

https://www.jewishgen.org/databases/EID ... 2088081064

No surname close to anything that sounds like mine. Could he have used a completely fake name upon coming here, or perhaps been a stowaway? How easy was it to become a stowaway and travel all the way to US without paying and manage to not get caught?

[lyn1982]

This link is abt a female baby named Maria Ottavia ABBO DELLA PINA http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... gpi_odx8oA
the father was Edmondo ABBO DELLA PINA so it is no pertaining…
suanj

Thank you for looking! Though still I wonder. I looked up about having 2 surnames and it said Spanish families often do, it said the children often are given both mother and fathers surname. So I wonder if mine could have been spanish originally and perhaps these ones are distant cousins Then perhaps my Josephs record would be under whatever his mothers surname was whether that be Paris or Pretrain or whatnot. I can't really think of any other reasons for why his record is proving impossible to find. Rome has nearly 300 index pages of birth records for 1896 and probably around that for 1895 or 1894, I'm wondering if it'd be a fruitless search to look through them all in search of any sign of a Joseph born to father Domenico. But it seems I might not even have a correct DOB for him if he gave fake dates so if surname differs, how would I even prove it's mine. ;(