Haplogroup non-matches -- both Y-DNA and mtDNA

[MarcuccioV]

FTDNA recently had an upgrade. I currently have 3507 DNA matches. I just went through the list. Of all the matches that list EITHER a Y-DNA OR mtDNA haplotype, I have ZERO matches. ZERO. Only 1 match has my paternal surname, but our Y-DNA haplotypes are different and unrelated (he is RM-269, I am R-Z19). No matches on the mtDNA side, either (I am a U3b).

Okay, so on the mtDNA side (my Italian ancestry), I can see the possibility of no relatives testing (I have VERY few DNA matches from my maternal Italian side).

But on my father's side (predominately northern European, but possibly some Med mix that I can't find by paper trail), I have thousands of matches -- and yet NO Y-DNA matches..? I have 3 1st cousin matches (2 paternal, 1 maternal) on other matrices so I can't check them.

So logic tells me EITHER no one on my direct paternal line has tested OR there is a paternal break somewhere (which might explain the Med results I can't document).

Am I on the right track here..? This is driving me crazy...

[darkerhorse]

If someone in your direct paternal has been tested, then shouldn't you have a Y haplogroup match, whether there was a break in the line - matching either to your surname (unbroken) or a different surname (broken)?

If so, I tend to vote for no direct male relative having been tested.

What does your suspicion of undocumented Med heritage indicate?

[darkerhorse]

Another lesser possibility is that your reported Y haplogroup is in error. I hear some companies only make "estimates".


Have you had your Y haplogroup tested by more than one company?

Have you joined any projects like this one?
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/u1 ... background

[MarcuccioV]

If someone in your direct paternal has been tested, then shouldn't you have a Y haplogroup match, whether there was a break in the line - matching either to your surname (unbroken) or a different surname (broken)?

If so, I tend to vote for no direct male relative having been tested.

What does your suspicion of undocumented Med heritage indicate?

Most likely no one has tested. I went through the Ancestry matches, only a few on the direct Y line which have not tested or uploaded to FTDNA. I doubt this is the Med origination line anyway. I'm sure it's somewhere in the middle. There are a few branches that don't seem to contain any matches, and there are many matches to both me and both tested paternal 1st cousins (1 on Ancestry & 1 on MyHeritage) that have varying degrees of Med, despite no obvious paper trail indicating such.

As for the haplogroup, it came up as R-Z19 on more than one matrix, and no other haplogroup listed. I haven't done Y testing (mtDNA in process now) yet. On one of the other matrices I believe there were one or two R-Z19 matches, with different surnames.

As for the RM-269 matches (I have a ton of them), that is predominately a UK haplogroup, which is most of my paternal branches (aside from the Y and a couple of deeper twigs), so that makes perfect sense.

Looks like I need to dust off my shovel and get to the "root" of the matter...

[darkerhorse]

Mine is also M-269. I think it's been narrowed down to Scotland. Since my surname is Sicilian, it suggests that one or more males in the direct line headed south centuries ago.

[MarcuccioV]

RM-269 is extremely common & found in several parts of Europe, but mostly NW Europe & UK countries. R-Z19 seems to favor mainland Europe.

As far as the 2 paternal 1st cousins go (they are the oldest & youngest sons of the same father), they and I have similar yet different ethnic makeups. They have certain ethnicities that I do not & vice versa (this taking into consideration different mothers between them &I). They do not even match each other. No Med for them, but their dad was not olive skinned & had lighter hair more like the Irish branch of the family. Both of them have light, reddish-blonde hair.

For example, I show about 10-12% Germanic & they show none. They show about 15% Irish & I show none (their mother was English; both indicate approx 75% English, again I show none). This indicates very well the randomness of replication from previous gens.

Trying to look at it logically (and I'm not sure if that's possible), perhaps they replicated more UK ancestry since that was predominant on both parents, where I got more Med as my mother was all Med & my father seems to have inherited some Med from a previous gen and it replicated more due to MY mother's ancestry. It looks good in theory, at least.

The answer is out there somewhere, I'm sure...

[MarcuccioV]

I just researched shared matches for the younger of the brothers (MyHeritage). I went through a couple dozen. About 1/3 of them have some Italian ancestry. Only one was documented on their family tree (on her mother's side). No evidence for any of the others. Just adds to the confusion.

[joetucciarone]

In my years of researching, I've found that mysteries keep things interesting!

[MarcuccioV]

In my years of researching, I've found that mysteries keep things interesting!

LOL. Ain't it the truth, ain't it the truth..!

[Lenauk]

Is your dad from South Germany? There were Roman settlers there.

[MarcuccioV]

Is your dad from South Germany? There were Roman settlers there.

The paternal line (as far as I can trace it) originates on the current NW Germany/Holland border (Westphalia). There are a few branches which have distant relatives from almost every part of Germany. But most of the paternal tree is Scots-Irish, Welsh & English (my DNA shows no Irish or English but includes some <5-15%> Mediterranean).

My DNA results and paper trail don't necessarily agree, but my matches do. My father and 2 of his brothers were deeply olive-skinned. It's all very confusing...

[darkerhorse]

Could the 5-15% Mediterranean be Spanish resulting in "Black Irish" ancestry?

[MarcuccioV]

Could the 5-15% Mediterranean be Spanish resulting in "Black Irish" ancestry?

Plausible, I suppose, except the matrices indicate Italian, not Iberian. I would think even if there was an Italian that emigrated to Spain I believe there would still be Iberian to be found, but ALL matrices indicate 0% Iberian. Of those that agree, the 5-15% is Italian.

The only division I can assume is that it is more northern Italian but even that's impossible to determine due to southern, northern & central on my mother's side.

I still cannot make any determination by paper trail. It has to be a relatively recent gen, it can't be very deep. I'd guess 4-5GG max. My Ancestry Thru-lines are of no help, as they are based on member-created trees which we all know can be rife with errors.

It still leaves me standing on square one looking around to see where I can go next...

[MarcuccioV]

Another thorn in my side are all the DNA matches related to family members on my father's side that have smaller percentages of Italian ancestry but yet their trees do not contain any Italian surnames on either their paternal or maternal branches. Again, where is it coming from unless it's either undocumented (whether by adoption or illegitimacy) or possibly an immigrant that changed their name to hide their ancestry or perhaps other more devious reasons (criminal past. etc)..?

It HAS to be coming from SOMEWHERE. I just can't buy into the idea that all these indicators (both physical and scientific) are merely coincidences...

[darkerhorse]

Sounds like there could be a hidden Italian or an error in DNA classification.

The latter is less likely if you're getting the same results from different DNA companies.

Who is the closest paternal relative who also has been tested?

What do you mean by "matrices"? Sounds like a guard for a female prisoner.