Translating Marriage Certificate - Vittorio Menossi

[deigo1]

Hello,

Could someone help with the translation of this marriage certificate of Vittorio and Elisa Bonetti

https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... 49&lang=en
page 2

I was curious as they appear to be older if there is any indication of prior marriages? I saw the year 1915 in the bottom writing, but wasn't sure what that referenced. Unfortunately, I was not able to find the actual marriage registry just the publication and Allegati

Allegati is here (page 1 and the next few pages): https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... 49&lang=en

Thanks!
D.

[darkerhorse]

I see no evidence of prior marriages.

Mid-thirties isn't that old for fist marriage.

Maybe they initially intended to marry in 1915 and were delayed by the war?

Did you check his military service?

[darkerhorse]

Is this your family tree?

Menossi Family Tree
Name: Vittorio Menossi
Birth: 22 Sep 1882 - Virgilio, Mantova, Lombardia, Italy
Death: 20 April 1931 (20 Apr 1931) - Indianapolis, Marion, Indiana, USA
Marriage: 20 Feb 1919 - Montese, Modena, Emilia-Romagna, Italy
Parents: Paolo Menossi, Prassede Losi
Spouse: Elisa Bonetti

[deigo1]

As it relates to military service, that is the root of what I was trying to figure out and where he was living. I was hoping by finding the actual marriage information, if perhaps the marriage indicated a prior marriage etc that may have helped with that. To your other question that is this tree of ancestors.

There is a wide time span from birth to the next event.
We know that he was born in what is now Borgo Virgilio, Mantova, but at some point the family moved to Langhirano, Parma. There are no further siblings born after him in the commune of Borgo Virgilio. I sent an email to the archives in Parma, but they seem reluctant to search given he wasn't actually born in the province.

Thanks,
D!

[darkerhorse]

If either had been previously married I think it would have been noted in the marriage records with supporting documents in the allegati. I see no such indication in the documents you posted.

Maybe someone will translate what the 1915 reference is all about.

As mentioned, first marriage in the mid-thirties is not that unusual.

[AngelaGrace56]

Hello,

Could someone help with the translation of this marriage certificate of Vittorio and Elisa Bonetti

https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... 49&lang=en
page 2


Thanks!
D.

Marriage Pubblication No 1: Vittorio Menossi and Elisa Bonetti

Registered Montese: 1 February 1919

Appearing before the official were:­

Prospective Groom: Vittorio Menossi, 36 yo, minatore (miner), residing Langhirano, (Parma), son of Paolo (Menossi) a contadino, residing in Langhirano, and of Prassede Losi, massaia (domestic), also residing Langhirano.


And also

Prospective Bride: Elisa Bonetti, 33 yo , sarta (dressmaker), residing Montese, daughter of Albano (Bonetti), agricolo (farmer), and of Erminia Masotti, massaia, both residing Montese.

Side Notes: Banns were affixed to the door of the town hall, the first 2 February 1819 (until 9 February), the second, 9 February 1819, until 13 February.


Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

Hello,

...... I saw the year 1915 in the bottom writing, but wasn't sure what that referenced. Unfortunately, I was not able to find the actual marriage registry just the publication and Allegati

Allegati is here (page 1 and the next few pages): https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... 49&lang=en

Thanks!
D.

Ok, so the year 1915 was when the Birth Extract/Certificate that Vittorio Menossi presented to the official in Montese, in February 1919, prior to his marriage, was transcribed. It was dated 20 October 1915. He must have needed a copy of his Birth Record for some reason in 1915, kept it and presented it to the official in Montese in February 1919.


Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

Allegati is here (page 1 and the next few pages): https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... 49&lang=en
Thanks!
D.

Check my previous two posts. I've only got time for one from the allegati:

Birth (Extract) No 104: Vittorio Menossi

Registered Virgilio on 24 September 1882

Appearing was Paolo Menossi, 30 yo, contadino, living in Virgilio, who reported that at 2 am on 22 September 1882 in the house in Corte Maggiorine, No 85, from Prassede Losi, his wife, a donna di casa (domestic) living with him, was born a baby boy of male gender, who he did not present to the official, and to whom he gave the name Vittorio.

The declarant, i.e. Paolo Menossi, was given a dispensation from presenting the aforementioned baby boy because of the distance of the place of his birth to the town hall.


After the signatures there is the following note:

“Per copia conforme al suo originale in atti e si rilascia in carta libera questa certificato di poverta …..? dall’Autorita di P.S. di Langhirano in data 20 October 1915.”

I can’t quite catch all the words but what I am understanding is that the Birth Certificate/Extract was transcribed from the original on to “plain paper” because of his poverty. (I note that the same applies to the brides birth extract but hers is worded differently, but basically means the same thing.) I don’t recall seeing this before but I have seen "Certificates of Poverty" amongst allegati.


Remembering that the records included in the allegati are only handwritten copies of the original documents, I would suggest that you look for the original records. I’ve often found clerical errors in the extracts.

Original Birth Record Page 71 and 72: https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... 57&lang=en



Angela

[deigo1]

Thank you so much Angela. I was trying to think of what it could have been in 1915, but he had already made a trip to the US in 1912, so I think he would have had a passport. I wonder if you took up residence in a new town, would have required you to provide your civil information as a way of registering.

I was happy the Allegati was the very first entry

Thanks again!
D.

[darkerhorse]

Are you convinced it was their first marriage at age mid-thirtes?

[AngelaGrace56]

Thank you so much Angela. I was trying to think of what it could have been in 1915, but he had already made a trip to the US in 1912, so I think he would have had a passport. I wonder if you took up residence in a new town, would have required you to provide your civil information as a way of registering.

I was happy the Allegati was the very first entry

Thanks again!
D.

My pleasure, as always. Yes, I can understand your delight at the said Allegati being the first entry. They can be so time-consuming to search.

Anyways, here's Elisa's Birth Record translated:


Birth No 145: Elisa Maria Bonetti

Registered Montese 19 August 1885

Appearing was Albano Bonetti, 33 yo, agricoltore, living in Ranocchio, who reported that at 11 am on 18 of the current month, in the house in Ranocchio, No 77, from Erminia Masotti, his wife, a massaia, living with him, was born a baby girl, who he did not present to the official, and gave her the name Elisa Maria.

The declarant was dispensated from presenting the aforementioned baby because of the long distance from the place of birth, after having otherwise ascertained the truth of her birth.

At the base of the record, once again, there is a date and a notation which basically says that the certificate that has been transcribed conforms to the original record and is issued on plain paper, due to the applicant’s poverty status as per the certificate of the local authority and is dated 1 February 1919.

“la presente copia e conforme all’originale e si rilascia in carta libera per poverta’ della titolare richiedente come da Certificato della locale Autorita di P. S. in data d’oggi.”

In some ways I guess the notation is instead of a separate Certificate of Poverty in that it is certifying that the applicant was in a lower socio economic status. Having this certification, as I understand it, meant that some fees were either reduced or they were dispensated from having to pay them. So they were possibly exempt from having to pay any fees they would’ve incurred with getting married. (That’s my take on it. You can search here on the forum to learn more.)

Original Birth Record: Page 52 https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... id=3525445


Angela

[cedrone]

Yes, with the 'Certificato di povertà' the spouse was exempted from the payment of the fee (tassa di bollo) to get the birth certificate necessary for the pubblicazioni for the marriage,
all these papers were put in the 'Allegati'.

[AngelaGrace56]

Yes, with the 'Certificato di povertà' the spouse was exempted from the payment of the fee (tassa di bollo) to get the birth certificate necessary for the pubblicazioni for the marriage,
all these papers were put in the 'Allegati'.

Thank you for confirming, Cedrone.

Angela

[deigo1]

Thank you everyone for the information and help!


Thanks!
D.

[AngelaGrace56]

@Deigo1

I just wanted to add that I didn't think it was necessary to translate all the other documents there. They are basically just the banns and offer no added information to what was written in the Pubblication, which I translated earlier. The only thing that I could see that had been added was the word maggiore which is basically saying that they were adults - they had both reached the age of maturity, which we already know. I also wanted to say that, like you, I also consider mid thirties to be oldish for a first marriage, in that time frame, so I always look further as well, just in case it is a second marriage, which in this case it wasn't. My understanding is that the average age of marriage in that time frame was mid-late twenties but I have never researched this as such. Going by my own experience, eventhough I have seen first marriages taking place in the couples mid-thirties, I would agree with the mid-late twenties being the average age for a first marriage, and I've seen many much younger as well.

Angela