Father's Name

[darkerhorse]

this link was missing above:

#27 November 14, 1849 Birth – implies Paolo was born c.1809 and Antonia c.1814
Salvatore Gervasi, son of Paolo, 40 and Antonia Calafiore, 35
https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... 53/0ZAvly6

[darkerhorse]

To clarify, the father Paolo appeared in person to register the births of his children Maria (1846) and Salvatore (1849), and the father Salvatore appeared in person to register the birth of his son Sebastiano (1844).

The implied year of birth of Paolo and Salvatore on these birth records is similar to one another and quite different from the birth, marriage, and death records for Paolo.

Make a question out of the above, and answer it!

[AngelaGrace56]

It does seem like Paolo and Salvatore were the same person, although seems strange that Paolo would suddenly call himself Salvatore when he registered Sebastiano’s birth?

Looking at the 1871 marriage documents which Tessa located, the documents included also confirm that Sebastiano’s father was Salvatore/Salvadore Gervasi, not Paolo. Both Salvatore and Antonina were deceased at time of marriage, but unfortunately the allegati don’t seem to include their death records? There are two records on page 19 of 99 which I can barely read. I think the top one might be a type of certificate of poverty? You may want to post them on another thread and see if anyone else can decifer the wording. https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... 1l?lang=en

However, all that being said, Sebastiano’s daughter’s 1872 birth record, as you say, refers to Sebastiano, as fu Paolo: https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... 03/LaYgdDk

BTW I noticed a slight discrepancy on Paolo Gervasi and Antonina Calofiore’s 1843 wedding record. It notes Antonina’s mother’s name to be Michela Lombardo while Antonina’s death record states her mother’s name to be Arcangela Lombardo. The Marriage Record will be correct. I checked the Allegati but unfortunately there was no birth record included for Antonina Calofiore and few documents.

Marriage Allegati Paolo Gervasi and Antonina Calofiore starts Page 19 of 24: https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... 34/5BPKOGV

Angela

[darkerhorse]

I'm wondering if Salvatore and Paolo are the same person then why the discrepancies in ages/implied birth years on the children's' birth records? They're not consistent with other records.

I'll have to explore the difference in Antonia's mother's name, maybe there were two Antonias?

[darkerhorse]

Paolo Gervasi's birth records states he was born in 1824. His marriage record (c.1824) and death record (c.1823) are consistent.

By contrast, the birth records for his daughter Maria (c.1807) and son Salvatore (c.1809) imply Paolo was much older. The birth record for son Sebastiano also suggests the father (Salvatore) was born much earlier (c.1807).

Note the discrepancies in age at marriage for Salvatore (19) and Antonia (26). He was young(er). Could his age have been overstated when reporting his children's births to hide his youth? Or were Salvatore and Paolo different individuals, perhaps brothers?

[AngelaGrace56]

Paolo Gervasi's birth records states he was born in 1824. His marriage record (c.1824) and death record (c.1823) are consistent.

By contrast, the birth records for his daughter Maria (c.1807) and son Salvatore (c.1809) imply Paolo was much older. The birth record for son Sebastiano also suggests the father (Salvatore) was born much earlier (c.1812).

Note the discrepancies in age at marriage for Salvatore (19) and Antonia (26). He was young(er). Could his age have been overstated when reporting his children's births to hide his youth? Or were Salvatore and Paolo different individuals, perhaps brothers?

I'm wondering if Salvatore and Paolo are the same person then why the discrepancies in ages/implied birth years on the children's' birth records? They're not consistent with other records.

I'll have to explore the difference in Antonia's mother's name, maybe there were two Antonias?

My thinking is that Paolo/Salvatore possibly didn’t have a concept of age. It’s not uncommon to see such age discrepancies in records reported by those who were unable to read/write. (If you'd never had the opportunity to go to school and learn reading, writing, numbers etc, you probably wouldn't know how to calculate your age.)

Re Antonina Calofiore's mother's name, I would agree that there would probably be several, similar aged Antonina Calofiores, living at the same time with different mothers. Incidentally I had a look in the town of Solarino and came across the following two records where the parents are Sebastiano Calafiore and Archangelo Lombardo:

Salvatore Califiore born 17 July 1823, Solarino, son of Sebastiano Calafiore and Arcangelo Lombardo: https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... 53/5vA3mbK
(Page 39 of 70)

Michele Califiore, born 9 January 1826, Solarino Sicily, son of Sebastiano Calafiore and Arcangelo Lombardo: https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... 56/Lyn3yV1 (Page 3 of 84)

Interestingly, according to a tree on line at Family search, these two children had a sister named Antonina Califiore, born 25 November 1816, but of course there is no source to this information. The tree has her marrying someone called Salvatore Catinella (which could be an error?). You could contact one of the contributors to the tree and liase with them. It looks like the main contributor hasn't worked on it since 2014.

Angela

[PippoM]

Looking at the 1871 marriage documents which Tessa located, the documents included also confirm that Sebastiano’s father was Salvatore/Salvadore Gervasi, not Paolo. Both Salvatore and Antonina were deceased at time of marriage, but unfortunately the allegati don’t seem to include their death records? There are two records on page 19 of 99 which I can barely read. I think the top one might be a type of certificate of poverty? You may want to post them on another thread and see if anyone else can decifer the wording. https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... 1l?lang=en

Yes, it is. Notice that father's name (Salvatore) seems to heve been added or corrected.
The certificate states that Sebastiano is not recorded in the registers of tax payers (i.e., he owned nothing)

[darkerhorse]

Looking at the 1871 marriage documents which Tessa located, the documents included also confirm that Sebastiano’s father was Salvatore/Salvadore Gervasi, not Paolo. Both Salvatore and Antonina were deceased at time of marriage, but unfortunately the allegati don’t seem to include their death records? There are two records on page 19 of 99 which I can barely read. I think the top one might be a type of certificate of poverty? You may want to post them on another thread and see if anyone else can decifer the wording. https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... 1l?lang=en

Yes, it is. Notice that father's name (Salvatore) seems to heve been added or corrected.
The certificate states that Sebastiano is not recorded in the registers of tax payers (i.e., he owned nothing)

So, maybe he just didn't have to pay registration fees?

[darkerhorse]

[/quote]
My thinking is that Paolo/Salvatore possibly didn’t have a concept of age. It’s not uncommon to see such age discrepancies in records reported by those who were unable to read/write. (If you'd never had the opportunity to go to school and learn reading, writing, numbers etc, you probably wouldn't know how to calculate your age.)

Angela
[/quote]

Your point about age could explain it.

Is it your conclusion that there's just one person - Paolo/Salvatore?

[darkerhorse]

Yes, it is. Notice that father's name (Salvatore) seems to heve been added or corrected.
The certificate states that Sebastiano is not recorded in the registers of tax payers (i.e., he owned nothing)
[/quote]

Is there anything specific about a name correction for the father Salvatore?

On Sebastiano's birth record, his father appeared in person and is named as Salvatore.

On Sebastiano's marriage record he appeared in person and his father is named as Salvatore.

On Sebastiano's daughter's birth record he appeared in person and his father is named as Paolo.

On Sebastiano's death record his father is named as Paolo.

[AngelaGrace56]

My thinking is that Paolo/Salvatore possibly didn’t have a concept of age. It’s not uncommon to see such age discrepancies in records reported by those who were unable to read/write. (If you'd never had the opportunity to go to school and learn reading, writing, numbers etc, you probably wouldn't know how to calculate your age.)

Angela
[/quote]

Your point about age could explain it.

Is it your conclusion that there's just one person - Paolo/Salvatore?
[/quote]




I am still meandering somewhat, but this is what I am seeing:

The pubblication is dated 7 March 1871, after the following documents were received:

Certificate of Poverty dated 18 February 1871 which shows a correction/insert of Sabastiano’s father’s name (fu) “Salvatore”, as Pippo has pointed out – I’d wondered about that too but my understanding is that this would not have been allowed, in a legal document?

Extract of Birth Record of Sebastiano with father’s name (fu) “Salvatore” dated 2 March 1871

Sebastiano’s “Certifcate of Free Status”? Dated 2 March 1871. This also looks like Sabastiano’s father’s name (fu) “Salvatore” has been either corrected or inserted?

(The next long document pertains to his bride, Vincenza, which you may want to have translated.)

Second pubblication is here No 40: Sebastiano son of fu Salvatore Page 29 of 99 https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... YO?lang=en

Third pubblication her No 43: Page 31 of 99): Sebastiano son of fu Salvatore https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... q7?lang=en


My current hypothesis: What “possibly” may have happened, but was it allowed?, was that when Paolo registered Sebastiano’s birth, the clerk made an error and instead of writing Paolo wrote Salvatore, which wasn’t picked up until Sabastiano requested it in 1871. For whatever reason Sebastiano may then have decided to stick to what was on his birth record, and all the marriage documents were written up accordingly.

I had a look through the indices either side of 1843 to see whether there were any other births of children to a Salvatore Gervasi and Antonina Caliofiore but didn’t see any.

(It also seems like a bit of a coincidence (although not unlikely) that both Sebastiano (married 1871) and possibile brother Salvatore (married 1874) had lost both their parents when they married, and that both mother’s were named Antonina Caliofiore.)

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

Sorry, I forgot to add the link to what I am understanding to be a Certificate of Free Status so that someone else might verify. My eyes are struggling with the small script: https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... 7e?lang=en Page 21 of 99

Angela

[PippoM]

Sorry, I forgot to add the link to what I am understanding to be a Certificate of Free Status so that someone else might verify. My eyes are struggling with the small script: https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... 7e?lang=en Page 21 of 99

Angela

Yes, it is, and it states that the marriage registers from 1840 to the date had been checked, and no marriage was found for Sebastiano.
My thought about the corrections/insertions of Sebastiano's father's name is that he went by both names Salvatore and Paolo, so the clerks themselves were doubtful about what his "real" name was.

[AngelaGrace56]

Sorry, I forgot to add the link to what I am understanding to be a Certificate of Free Status so that someone else might verify. My eyes are struggling with the small script: https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... 7e?lang=en Page 21 of 99

Angela

Yes, it is, and it states that the marriage registers from 1840 to the date had been checked, and no marriage was found for Sebastiano.
My thought about the corrections/insertions of Sebastiano's father's name is that he went by both names Salvatore and Paolo, so the clerks themselves were doubtful about what his "real" name was.

Thank you for confirming. Yes, Sebastiano going by both names makes sense.

Angela

[darkerhorse]

In the absence of a birth, marriage, or death record for a Salvatore Gervasi who could be the father of Sebastiano Gervasi (b.1844) it appears that Salvatore and Paolo are one in the same person.

I guess we'll never know whether he went by both names or whether there was an error recording his name.