Death acts not witnessed by family or friends/neighbors

[MarcuccioV]

I have run into several roadblocks in my Italian roots searches.

I have to assume (based on DNA evidence) that some of my distant ancestors (post-1871) may have had errors on their death acts where there were only gravediggers or morticians as witnesses. All the death acts of my most distant ancestors place their births at the "home" commune (the commune where both my grandparents were born), yet my DNA (including mtDNA) shows otherwise.

This leads me to believe at least some of these death acts errantly attributed the home commune as a birthplace where there were no witnesses related to the decedent (or even if family members or friends didn't know where the person was born), but the official most likely just made an uneducated guess that they were born locally.

Has anyone that has DNA tested (and found regions/areas far removed from their ancestor's native town) run into this problem..?

[darkerhorse]

I haven't had any DNA testing but I wanted to weigh in.

I've seen Cittadinanze (citizenship records) for relatives who moved between towns within Sicily.

Have you searched for copies of older records contained within marital allegati (or equivalent)?

Are you making efforts to get access to records pre-1871?

[MarcuccioV]

I haven't had any DNA testing but I wanted to weigh in.

I've seen Cittadinanze (citizenship records) for relatives who moved between towns within Sicily.

Have you searched for copies of older records contained within marital allegati (or equivalent)?

Are you making efforts to get access to records pre-1871?

Unfortunately, there is only one cittedinanze record for Valmontone (1945-46) which lists nobody.

There used to be some Allegati on Family Search, but now they are no longer listed and all the old online records are now Family History Center only. Even when they were available, my grandparent's marriage year (1922) was not listed -- I believe they started at 1927.

I tried parish records (pre-1871) but I have not been successful at finding them. Maybe I'm doing something wrong...

[darkerhorse]

Do any airlines have flights to Rome, connecting through Salt Lake City?

[MarcuccioV]

Do any airlines have flights to Rome, connecting through Salt Lake City?

LOL. I'll be in Rome at the end of this month, and in SLC a year from now...

[PippoM]

If you are coming, we might meet! Let me know

[MarcuccioV]

If you are coming, we might meet! Let me know

Leaving 10/28, in Rome 3 days (3rd day in Valmontone), then Firenze for a week...

[darkerhorse]

If you meet Pippo, let us know if he looks like his picture.

[Italysearcher]

Death acts declared by the grave diggers (becchino) can have errors but not of the type you are describing. If a person dies at home (Parte 1) the becchino can declare the death taking information about the deceased from family members. Since they are not usually educated, occasionally names get mixed up.
If a person dies outside the home (in a ditch, street, etc) these acts are in Parte II or even III. In this case the declaration is clear, especially if the deceased is not known to anyone or his origins are not known. (John Doe) The clerk doesn't make 'educated' guesses about his origin. He records what he is told, and if the facts are unknown then it is crossed through.
Good luck in Valmontone.

[darkerhorse]

Death acts declared by the grave diggers (becchino) can have errors but not of the type you are describing. If a person dies at home (Parte 1) the becchino can declare the death taking information about the deceased from family members. Since they are not usually educated, occasionally names get mixed up.
If a person dies outside the home (in a ditch, street, etc) these acts are in Parte II or even III. In this case the declaration is clear, especially if the deceased is not known to anyone or his origins are not known. (John Doe) The clerk doesn't make 'educated' guesses about his origin. He records what he is told, and if the facts are unknown then it is crossed through.
Good luck in Valmontone.

If there was foul play, like a murder, how and where would that be recorded?

[MarcuccioV]

Death acts declared by the grave diggers (becchino) can have errors but not of the type you are describing. If a person dies at home (Parte 1) the becchino can declare the death taking information about the deceased from family members. Since they are not usually educated, occasionally names get mixed up.
If a person dies outside the home (in a ditch, street, etc) these acts are in Parte II or even III. In this case the declaration is clear, especially if the deceased is not known to anyone or his origins are not known. (John Doe) The clerk doesn't make 'educated' guesses about his origin. He records what he is told, and if the facts are unknown then it is crossed through.
Good luck in Valmontone.

I see your point, but there is far too much discrepancy between my DNA profile (and DNA matches) and the paper trail I have thus far. There must have been interlopers from other regions around the time period I'm looking into or it just doesn't make any sense at all...

[MarcuccioV]

Or -- as I suspected in my original post, that perhaps family members were uninformed or mistaken.

Another possibility is the decedent wished to "hide" their origins (for whatever reason) and lied about where they were born.

At any rate, there has to be a reasonable explanation...

[MarcuccioV]

As an aside, I have at least one ancestor whose death act shows only a first name for her mother (the surname was unknown to the witnesses who were not family), but she is noted as born in the commune (she was in her 80's when she passed) even though the witnesses were much younger (20's-30's). Just seems fishy to me.

Another brick wall to bang my head against.

[darkerhorse]

I don't think it's that unusual for an informant to know the spouse or parent's actual place of birth and not know their surname.

Have you perused neighboring records to see if there's a pattern?

For example, to tell if the clerk was just recording what the informant(s) said or recording the town's name by default when it was not provided or known.

[MarcuccioV]

I don't think it's that unusual for an informant to know the spouse or parent's actual place of birth and not know their surname.

Have you perused neighboring records to see if there's a pattern?

For example, to tell if the clerk was just recording what the informant(s) said or recording the town's name by default when it was not provided or known.

In looking at other unrelated Valmontone records, I have found a few cases where other communes were listed -- but in most cases these were birth or marriage acts. I believe even in most of those the commune listed was one of the 2 neighboring communities, Artena or Labico, and not far-off regions...