Getting those certified copies with apostille: the process

[Briginda]

Hello,

I apologize if this may have been discussed already in the forum, but I searched and did not find the exact answers.

1) I am trying to get the certified copies with apostille my Italian grandparents' naturalization papers. They naturalized in New York (Manhattan). After waiting a year for a response to a FOIA request, all I got was photocopies of the certificates of naturalization. How can I get certified copies with apostille? I actually have the originals, but I would rather keep them for future generations.

2) In trying to get my father's birth certificate and my grandmother's death certificate from New York State (Manhattan and Bronx), I am having some trouble. The NY Vital Records website says that even descendants cannot request these without a court order. My father is deceased and cannot request the records for me. I see the genealogy section, but it says these aren't certified copies. Does anyone know how I can get certified copies with apostille of these documents?

Thanks so much!

Julia

[johnnyonthespot]

1) If you have the originals, you can bring them with you when submitting your application and documents. The consulate will make photocopies and return the originals to you. If you prefer, you can make your own copies, but bring both originals and copies to your appointment so the officer can see that they are true copies. NOTE: this special case applies ONLY to naturalization documents. Either way, naturalization documents do not require apostilles.

2) New York has extremely tough policies. Since you are talking Manhattan and the Bronx, you need to be working with New York City Vital Records/Department of Health. When was your father born? When did your grandmother die? The rules vary depending on the exact dates. See http://www.nyc.gov/html/records/html/vi ... home.shtml

Is your mother still living?

[Briginda]

Thanks for the tips about the naturalization documents. I do have the originals. So they don't require them to have an apostille or be certified if they are original? Is that correct?

My father was born in 1947 in Manhattan, and died in 1999 in Tennessee. It is through his father than I am petitioning (both his parents were Italian, but only his father was naturalized after he was born). It has been no problem to get the death certificate since my mother is still living, but the birth certificate seems to be another matter. According to the website you linked, the NYC Vital Records standard rules seem to apply that I cannot request a certified copy, but there must be a way! Ideas?

[Tonio70]

Briginda,

I hope I can be of some assistance to you. I had a certain situation, my mother had passed on and I needed her birth certificate certified for the citizenship process. I completed the application and mailed it in along with a copy of the death record, money orders, and I received the actual original document. All the clerk did was put deceased on her birth record. Who instructed you that you would need a Court order to obtain the document? My advice is to complete the form completely, asking for a certified original copy, request a Letter of Exemplification as well, include money orders separately, they will return your request if you send a personl check, include a copy of the Death record and you should recieve the document. A cover letter stating what the purpose is for and a copy of your ID will help as well. Just be patient, NYC Vital records can take a while to process your request. I hope things work out for you, just be persistent and you will see results. Good luck.

[Briginda]

Briginda,
Who instructed you that you would need a Court order to obtain the document?

The website for NY Vital records says, "If the applicant is not the spouse, parent or child of the decedent, a lawful right or claim must be documented. An example of a lawful right or claim would be a death record needed by the applicant to claim a benefit. Documentation would consist of an official letter from the agency verifying that to process the claim they require from the applicant a copy of the requested death record." http://www.health.state.ny.us/vital_records/death.htm

Thanks for the kind response! I don't have a death record or any documents from my grandmother other than her marriage certificate and naturalization certificate. The only reason I even knew her date of death was from searching the NYC property records, where it was mentioned in relation to the estate. She died when my father was 20, and now my father is deceased, so I don't know. I sent in the request to NY Vital Records, but I have no idea if they will honor it based on the guidelines they give on their website.

With my request and in addition to a copy of my driver's license, I included copies of my father's birth certificate with her name on it, my birth certificate, and the court order of my father's name change (because his name is different on my birth cert than on his own). I also marked to request the Letter of Exemplification. I wonder if this will be enough.

Any ideas on how to get those naturalization certified copies, because I just realized I don't actually have the original for my grandfather.. only my grandmother.

[Tonio70]

Well if I am reading this correctly, you are her grandaughter, so you are in direct descendent. I had to retrieve my grandfather's birth record from NYC Vital records and I recieved it wit no headaches. I do hope they will see that you are related to the individual that you are requesting the document of. May I ask what Consulate you are applying through? I ask because I am not aware of any consulate requesting a certified Naturalization record. I am not sure that can be done anyhow. I beleive a copy of the document is sufficeint enough, I am applying through Miami and that is what they request. What State did he receive his Naturualiztion from? If from NYC (any of the 5 Boroughs) try looking on the NYC try this website http://www.italiangen.org/databaselist.stm. It is a database that looks up records for naturalization. I found my Great grandfathers record there, was able to retireve the document number, and obtain the document from the Government. Also try this website....http://www.naturalizationrecords.com/usa/newyork.shtml.

Good luck.

[acupxpa]

Hi Julia,

I was really confused when I read the NYC Vital records website as well. I too need to get the birth certificate of my deceased father. So I called them. The woman on the phone said all I needed to do was bring in a COPY of a death certificate and they can issue me a birth certificate. She certainly made it sound like no big deal. They will also certify it. They do not do this online.

As far as a death certificate for my grandfather, I need that from them as well. No further documentation is needed if you are related. Sounds like you sent them more than enough. I will be going in person, but they will mail me the documents back with the certifications and exemplifications (So they said) hopefully faster than if I mailed it...

I requested certified naturalization records through NARA online. I put in a request on a Tuesday and received them on Saturday. REALLY. They come with the red ribbon everyone mentions, but no certificate.

I do not have an original naturalization certificate or copy, so through the geneaology branch of USCIS I recently put in a request for an index search to obtain a certificate # so then I can put in another request and wait again for a certificate. NY Consulate does say it requires this.

I thought I had found a certificate # on the bottom of the oath of allegiance but the number was not being accepted on the USCIS on line order form I think because it has to start with a C? They do not certify it through geneaology requests but I could not find any info on a certified copy. If you waited for a year through a FOIA request for a non certified copy-- then I'm still trying to figure out WHO DOES THE CERTIFICATION??? The only thing I can think of to do is bring it to the court that did the naturalization like Mazzini suggested (see thread Naturalization papers Brooklyn NY) in my case it would be the Eastern District NY. Even though they do not have certificate copies, maybe they can "certify" it.

See USCIS info on FAQ dual citizenship http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/ ... 18190aRCRD

Anyway, it sounds like we have some similar issues. Are you going through NY consulate also? Why do you need your grandmothers naturalization papers if you are going through your grandfather?
Gina

[johnnyonthespot]

I thought I had found a certificate # on the bottom of the oath of allegiance but the number was not being accepted on the USCIS on line order form I think because it has to start with a C?

All you needed to do was to put a "C" in front of the number you already had (the one identified as "Certificate No."on the Oath of Allegiance).

[johnnyonthespot]

For everyone in this thread who is receiving documents from NYC:

The New York Secretary of State's office has special requirements for documents obtained from NYC. If you do not follow the instructions carefully, you will not be able to get the certificates apostilled. See http://www.dos.state.ny.us/corps/apostille.html for details.

•All birth and death records originating from the five boroughs of New York City (Bronx, Brooklyn, Manhattan, Queens, Staten Island) must be certified together with a Letter of Exemplification by contacting the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene, 125 Worth Street, New York, NY 10013. The Letter of Exemplification must be requested when ordering the birth or death certificate. The telephone number of the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene is (212) 788-4500 or (212) 669-2400. This service is not available online. The original document must then be presented to the New York County Clerk’s office to verify the signature of the City Clerk. The New York County Clerk is located at 60 Centre Street, New York, NY 10007. The document can then be presented to the New York State Department of State for authentication.


•All marriage records originating from the five boroughs of New York City (Bronx, Kings, Manhattan, Queens, and Staten Island) must be obtained from the Marriage Bureau, Municipal Center, 1 Centre Street, 2nd Floor, New York, NY 10007. Obtain a certified copy of the marriage certificate with an original signature of the City Clerk. The document must then be presented to the County Clerk's Office in the county where the document was obtained to verify the signature of the City Clerk. The document can then be presented to the New York State Department of State for authentication.

[acupxpa]

Hi Johnny on the spot!

Yes I had thought of that, the problem being that the form says the certificate number can be up to 7 digits long, if you add the "C" it becomes 8 as my grandfathers number is already 7 digits long. I guess I was worried about waiting a long time to find out I didn't have the right number and then have to do an index search anyway, so I'm glad you confirmed what I suspected...

I filled out the online form again and the site accepted the additional digit, so I will submit that, THANKS! I am also going request "certificate only" and see if that saves any time since I already have the other documents.

Soon I will be requesting the vital docs of my grandparents from Italy. I just confirmed my grandmothers birthdate and location through FHS microfilm so I have all the accurate info to make a request.
Ill keep you all posted.......

[johnnyonthespot]

Hi Johnny on the spot!

Yes I had thought of that, the problem being that the form says the certificate number can be up to 7 digits long, if you add the "C" it becomes 8 as my grandfathers number is already 7 digits long. I guess I was worried about waiting a long time to find out I didn't have the right number and then have to do an index search anyway, so I'm glad you confirmed what I suspected...

Yep, seven digits plus the "C" makes eight. Another example of silly bureaucratic forms - why don't they just say, "If you know your ancestor's Certificate of Naturalization number, enter it here _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "

[acupxpa]

I find the USCIS website replete with contradictions and mistakes. Another one one is this:

"To request only the certificate, write "Dual Citz--Natz Certificate Only" on your request form G-1041A or in the "optional information section" of your online request."

Guess what. There is no "optional information section" on the online form.

Another one was the payment option for written requests. The site says don't send a personal check in the mail. The application instructions says personal checks will be debited electronically.....

and so it goes...

[Tonio70]

Anyone obtaining documents from NYC need to know it is a 3 step process in order to actually get the Apostille from the State of New York. I just finally finished Step 2, the notary verification of 7 documents. So far it has taken a litte over 4 months so far. Now I am at the last stage, the Apostille process, I beleive this will be the easier of the 3 steps. When sending in for Notary verification, please note that a $3.00 money is required for each verification request. I was original told $4.00, obtained the money orders, sent it in only to have them all returned stating it was a $3.00 fee. Just trying to help anyone else avoid all these unnecessary pitfalls.