I was told to give up!

[DeFilippis78]

What consulate are you using?

[lowlight]

he was born in Gubbio in Perugia, he arrived in 1900, he was a laborer, and eventually became a boss at an iron mine. I applied in Chicago. Another individual mentioned to me they had a similar experience w/ Chicago concerning the 1912 law. And that would be the next thing they would mention since my Grandfather was born in 1912.

[DeFilippis78]

Did you have your appointment yet? Did they specifically ask for a census and is it definitely required in Chicago?

[lowlight]

I had 2 appt and was told I could come back whenever I want next time. Assuming I have new information. Yes they require the census.

[DeFilippis78]

So they are holding up the whole thing over the census saying he naturalized even though you have all those records saying he didnt? Is that right?

[johnnyonthespot]

The consulate, like it or not, will give great weight to a census which indicates the person naturalized. Making matters worse, in this case, the ancestor reported that he naturalized in 1904, well before the July 1, 1912 rule expired. Come to think of it, well before Herman's birth, as well. And, on not just one but on three consecutive censuses. Making matters worse, you cannot even point to his WWI draft registration card, because it too lists him as naturalized.

You have a very tough job ahead of you. You need to either find naturalization documents dated after Herman's birth, or you are going to need an unquestionable preponderance of evidence that Alfredo did not naturalize. As anyone who has done this before knows, it is far easier to prove that an event did occur than to prove that it did not.

As already stated above, the No Records Found letter from USCIS is meaningless because USCIS would not have records from 1904 anyway (see bottom of http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/ ... 18190aRCRD ). The No Records Found letter from NARA is also inconclusive because there are so many records that NARA simply does not hold in its archives (see http://archives.gov/genealogy/naturalization/index.html ). The state and county records are questionable because these records are not well maintained when going back that far and, worse, you cannot prove beyond doubt that he did not naturalize in some other state; the fact that he was in Michigan in 1900, 1910, 1920, and 1930 does not prove that he was not in - I don't know, perhaps Texas - in 1905, 1915, or 1925.

Lowlight, the one place you haven't mentioned researching yet is "local court records". I suggest you contact the Michigan State Archives (see my previous post) on Monday and inquire as to where these records might be found.

[lowlight]

While what your saying does not bode well for my situation I'm so pleased we can have this vigorous discussion. Johnny, I have a no records from them as well. I even got into a heated debate (by phone) with the researcher because he was not going to list as the variations of first names on his report because the first appt they made a stink about the fact that he used fred, frederick, alfred & alfredo. I don't know what other neg info I can gather. Unless I find those Nat. papers if they exist. I may have to call the Mormon's on Monday.

[jennabet]

Perhaps the consulate is considering that because your ancestor was from Perugia, he was literate and more likely to have become naturalized than an illiterate immigrant from the South.

[lowlight]

ouch Southern Italian's. Still a pretty week case in my book....that doesn't count for anything!!!!

[jennabet]

Sorry. I don't get your point. Can you elaborate?

[jennabet]

Did your ancestor indicate on the census that he could read and write? I don't mean just English. I'm asking if he was educated in Perugia and thinking that he was, indeed.

[lowlight]

I just meant that if the consulate was using that logic to steer me away, that was a pretty small reason given what I have provided. Something that maybe has not come through this thread is that on my first visit the census was not an issue. It was the old "your USCIS needs amending" & "he obviously lived there but what else do you have to support this" hence the deed to his house, assessor records, newspaper clippings mentioning his name. Then on the 2nd visit I get the census stonewall.

[lowlight]

on the 1900 census (his arrival) he said he could read and write but knew no english. On the 1910 census he claims to speak english and be able to read and write. Not sure if he referring o English or Italian.

[jennabet]

........Carmine said: A quick search failed to turn up the 1910 census, but here is the 1930 and also the 1920 just for reference. I notice that while the 1920 census gives Fred's year of immigration as 1900, the 1930 census gives it as 1890. Mary is also 10 years earlier, 1903 vs. 1893. Another minor detail, son Leonard in 1920 seems to be son Raymond in 1930.........

I ran into similar discrepancies pertaining to arrival dates on 1910, 1920 and 1930 Census. Each new Census gave an earlier date of arrival. I then looked at the record for the other immigrants on the same block. This was a mixed neighborhood -- not just Italians living here. The Irish arrived considerably earlier than the Italians. Therefore, I took the Italian embelishment regarding earlier arrival as an effort to "fit in". Afterall, this is just a Census. Nobody was holding a gun to their heads. Arguably, an immigrant could have claimed to be born in the USA and not have had to produce his birth certificate to satisfy the Census worker. Surely Consulates have some insight into all of this.






Where did these people live? Was it an Italian neighborhood on the East Coast or was it a part of the country where non-Italian immigrants lived who came to America earlier?

[lowlight]

My GGF settled in the upper peninsula on Michigan. He lived in Iron Mountain for a couple years and then moved to Bessemer Michigan. I looked into naturalizations for both places. Iron Mountain has their information on-line here:

http://www.michigan.gov/mde/0,1607,7-14 ... --,00.html

I could look in surrounding counties to see if I find anything. But both places he lived turned up nothing. I guess the consulate takes what it wants into consideration. My brother seemed to think it was a test to see how many hoops I would jump threw. Sad but it feels that way a little bit.