Papa - Gruppuso Marriage Record?

[sacesta]

I've been trying to locate the marriage record of my 2nd great grandparents Camillo Papa and Antonina Gruppuso. I was led to believe they were married on the 11th of March, 1867 but found no marriage recorded on that date.

I did, however, find this, which looks to me like it may be the document I am looking for. The groom looks like it could be Camillo Papa and the bride looks like Antonia Gruppuso. Her parents also check out - I already believed them to be Domenico A Gruppuso and Giovanna Vona - listed here.

Still, for some reason, I am suspect. The record is in poor condition and difficult to read. I cannot discern the date (other than the year) or any other information other than what I've indicated above.

My apologies for the poor copy. This is the best the film reader/scanner could do. Can you help me decipher the date of this marriage and maybe Camillo's parents and witnesses present?

Thanks,
Steve

[erudita74]

The date is Jan 13, 1867. Banns of marriage were on Dec 16th, 23rd, and 26th of Dec 1866. The groom's father was Antonino Papa. Mother was Giovanna Zito.
Erudita

[sacesta]

Grazie mille Erudita!

Ma ora sono confuso. I thought Antonina's parents to be Domenico A Grappuso and Giovanna Vona. And I thought Camillo's to be Salvatore Papa and Rosaria Caragno. Maybe I have the wrong Camillo Papa.

Do you agree the groom's name is Camillo?

Steve

[erudita74]

Steve
You have the bride's parents correct but the groom's parents are the names I gave you above. The groom's name looks like Gamillone (?) Papa. It definitely starts with the same letter as the bride's last name.
Erudita

[sacesta]

Yes. I see the first letter as a G also. Now I'm even more confused. Vincenza Papa's marriage record (Antonina's daughter) shows what looks to me to be Camillo Papa as her father.



And here on her record of baptism (dated 22 months later than the marriage record of Camillo and Antonina), Vincenza's parents also appear to be Camillo Papa and Antonina Gruppuso, although I have to admit on this record also Vincenza's father's first name appears to start with the same letter as her mother's last name (a G, as in Gruppuso).

[erudita74]

Steve
As far as I can tell, these records are all for the same family. I don't know why the name Camillo would be written with a G at the beg in some of the records. As to the ending in the marriage record, I don't find that disturbing. I think it's just the diminutive meaning "little Camillo." By the way, the middle initial A for Domenico's name is missing from the marriage record. BTW, where did you find the names Salvatore Papa and Rosaria Caragno for Camillio's parents? Also I just read something interesting. The name in Latin which started with a C may have been pronounced as if it started with a G which may be the reason why a G instead of a C was written at the beg of the name in some of the records.
Erudita

[sacesta]

The ending of the name does not disturb me either. I think you are correct. That it is just a diminutive.

It's interesting what you found regarding the C and G. I know in Italian the two letters often sound similar, but I never gave much thought to the notion that they might be transposed in writing.

I found Camillo Papa and his parents, Salvatore Papa and Rosaria Caragno, in a records search at Family Search. In the absence of other records, this Camillo Papa seemed like a fit. The names and dates were a fair match. But his extracted record of baptism indicates he was baptized in Piana dei Greci, Palermo, Palermo, Italy. And so far, everyone I've discovered who has married into the Aceste line have done so in the chiesa di San Silvestri Papa in Calatafimi, Trapani. So in light of that fact and what I've learned here, I see he is not the Camillo Papa I am looking for.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XV17-5QQ

Thanks again for your help Erudita!

Steve

[erudita74]

The marriage record reads that both sets of parents were of this town and Mother Church (so they were members of this particular parish). The record doesn't tell us if Camillo was born in another town. Hopefully you'll be able to locate his baptism record.
Erudita

[sacesta]

Thanks again Erudita.
I have another roll of microfilm on the way to my local FHC that should be here by next Wednesday and should contain Camillo's record of baptism. I'll let you know what I find out next week.
Steve

[erudita74]

Hi Steve
I hope you find the baptism record. It's difficult to narrow down his year of birth/baptism, as the church marriage records don't give his age at the time of his marriage to help you estimate his birth year. Hopefully this parish has good indices though which can help you find him. If the indices are alphabetical for first names, then I look under both C and G, as you have no way of knowing in advance how the priest spelled his first name.
Good luck in finding him. Keep me posted.
Erudtia

[sacesta]

Ok, I'll keep that in mind Erudita. Thanks!