Hello all, I am extremely interested in pursuing Italian citizenship for myself, and I have been doing a lot of digging and research over the past few weeks. My grandfather came here in 1906 and my father was born in 1922. I have searched and searched to see if my grandpa naturalized and I cannot find any records. I contacted NARA here in Brooklyn because that's where he lived the entire time he was in this country , and they did a search and they told me they came up with no record for him. I checked the 1930 census and he's listed as NA. I realize that if he naturalized I will not qualify but I cannot find the records anywhere and I am wondering if I still have a chance or if him being listed as naturalized on the census is basically the end of my hope.
This may sound weird but I am also wondering ,from everything that I have read, if it makes a difference as to where I go to apply. Is it even possible for me to go to a different consulate than the one in my city? If I live in New York City can I go to the one in Philadelphia? The requirements on the website of the New York consulate would eliminate me off the bat with that census form even if I had a letter stating there was no record found. However, the requirements on the Philadelphia site state that if the nationality of the person is listed as Italian on the death certificate then they don't require the census. I have not seen my grandpa's death certificate , but I'm going to try to obtain a copy and see if it's listed. I read that some death certificates do not even list nationality and if it doesn't list that then they would refer to the census. If the death certificate lists his nationality as American then I would have to show them the census which would eliminate me.
Do you think this is just pointless for me to even start? I would love to have this , but if such a glaring detail is going to eliminate me and there's no way I can slide through despite lack of evidence of the naturalization in documents should I even try? I feel like that stupid census form is blocking me, and I'm not even sure if it's true. Everyone from this time is long gone from my life so there is no one to ask questions about this. I found naturalization records for another relatives and it wad from the 30s. Still nothing for my grandpa though.
Thanks for any advice!
Should I even attempt this ordeal?
Re: Should I even attempt this ordeal?
Yes, persevere! If you go to this site, it has good info on researching the naturalization docs in the "How do I get a Certificate of Naturalization?" section https://www.myitalianfamily.com/italian ... -questions
Re: Should I even attempt this ordeal?
Well, I don't think the 1930 census will necessarily eliminated your qualification (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Your grandfather could have naturalized after 1922, but before 1930, which would mean you still qualify. Also, I would refer to the 1920 census; if it states that he is stil an AL and not PA (petitioning), then there is a good chance he didn't naturalize before your father's birth. I'm pretty sure New York State had a 1925 census (search familysearch.org), which could prove your case if it says AL.
You should also seek confirmation from the Federal Court and the local courts for no record of naturalizion.
Good Luck!
Nick
You should also seek confirmation from the Federal Court and the local courts for no record of naturalizion.
Good Luck!
Nick
Re: Should I even attempt this ordeal?
Absolutely correct. It is the 1920 census that is important. That he was listed as naturalized in 1930, is not proof that he naturalized before 1922.
If you live in NY, you will have to apply in NY.
I'm not sure about this, but I think that NARA only has naturalization records of those who naturalized in the federal courts. He may have naturalized in the state courts, so do another search. Also check Kings County records.
If you live in NY, you will have to apply in NY.
I'm not sure about this, but I think that NARA only has naturalization records of those who naturalized in the federal courts. He may have naturalized in the state courts, so do another search. Also check Kings County records.
Re: Should I even attempt this ordeal?
Thank you everyone so much for the encouragement! At this point it is not looking good. I searched the 1920 census which was two years before my father's birth and my grandpa is listed as a naturalized. HOWEVER, he is not even listed by name! Whoever took that census wrote in "head of household" in the space above my grandma's name. I can only tell it's him because of his age and occupation and all the other family names underneath his and my grandma's spots and the address. I also checked the 1925 census and he is listed as naturalized there too but this time they listed his name as "Yono" LOL. His name was Antonio. I had very little faith in record keeping to begin with but now it is totally shot. I had contacted NARA here in Brooklyn where his records would be and they replied that nothing comes up showing that he was naturalized. Well I can imagine this is probably because the name on the naturalization paper is God knows what. Maybe I should start looking for the most completely opposite sounding name from his and then I would finally find him 
Anyway, if my chances are dependent on the census it's full of issues. When they searched for me in Brooklyn they tried a lot of variations on his name that I gave them to and he still did not come up. Complaining aside, I am really enjoying learning about the region where my family came from. Before I started this whole endeavor I could not imagine why they would've left. It looks so beautiful there. After delving into history I now realize they were living in a special kind of hell. It sounds like the conditions there were brutal and when they came to New York even though they were poor and had nothing it had to be a million times better than where they came from, living conditions wise. Fascinating stuff!
Anyway, if my chances are dependent on the census it's full of issues. When they searched for me in Brooklyn they tried a lot of variations on his name that I gave them to and he still did not come up. Complaining aside, I am really enjoying learning about the region where my family came from. Before I started this whole endeavor I could not imagine why they would've left. It looks so beautiful there. After delving into history I now realize they were living in a special kind of hell. It sounds like the conditions there were brutal and when they came to New York even though they were poor and had nothing it had to be a million times better than where they came from, living conditions wise. Fascinating stuff!
Re: Should I even attempt this ordeal?
Sorry to hear that. Before you give up, I would check to see when the 1920 census states he naturalized. If it is within 5 years of his immigration it is probably not accurate. Is his wife listed as naturalized? Lastly, if your grandfather was still alive in the 1940's you could check the Alien Registration Index.
Nick
Nick
Re: Should I even attempt this ordeal?
Thanks Nick! I will look at these things, it does not say my grandma was naturalized. My grandpa died in 1975 and he does not come up in the Alien index. I am going to some more digging and not get my hopes up. I'm enjoying the experience regardless of what comes of it!nfanuele wrote: 11 Feb 2017, 04:31 Sorry to hear that. Before you give up, I would check to see when the 1920 census states he naturalized. If it is within 5 years of his immigration it is probably not accurate. Is his wife listed as naturalized? Lastly, if your grandfather was still alive in the 1940's you could check the Alien Registration Index.
Nick
Re: Should I even attempt this ordeal?
Was your grandmother born in Italy as well? If so, and they married before 1922 (likely, since that's when your dad was born), that would be before the Cable Act was passed. Pre-Cable Act, women automatically naturalized with their husbands. If you do find that your grandfather naturalized before your father was born, but after his marriage, you would have a path through your grandmother. It would be a 1948 case, however.
Re: Should I even attempt this ordeal?
The above information is not correct. The Cable act did not apply to US citizen men who married foreign women. Both of my grand-parents were born in Italy. My grand-mother arrived in USA in 1919 and was married to my grand-father, an Italian immigrant in January 1920 in Philadelphia. My father was born in 1922. My grand-father naturalized in June 1923. There is absolutely nothing on my grand-father's naturalization paperwork that indicates his wife was naturalized with him. Also at that time, my grand-mother did not speak one word of English and could not pass the citizenship test that was required of every adult becoming naturalized.
Re: Should I even attempt this ordeal?
Jennebet, it seems your grandfather naturalized post-Cable Act (1923) so, of course, your grandmother was treated independently. That was the purpose of the law. Pre-Cable Act, a woman automatically assumed the citizenship of her husband. It was the law at the time. My own grandmother was affected by the Act. She was born in NY, but by marrying an Italian, she automatically became an Italian too. She had to naturalize in 1929 to reclaim the citizenship with which she was born.
In was a sad period for women, but the 1922 Cable Act meant that women were no longer automatically assigned the citizenship of their husbands.
This works to the benefit of the OP because both grandparents were born in Italy. If the grandfather naturalized before the Cable Act was in place, and the grandmother automatically assumed the US citizenship of her husband without her independent action, this would create a viable 1948 case.
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Just as a point of genealogical interest, the Cable Act creates some confusion when examining historical records. I had my grandmother's NYC birth certificate and her naturalization papers, and I couldn't understand why a US-born woman had to naturalize. This really confused me until I discovered the Cable Act, an act that reversed the pre-1922 law which automatically assigned a woman to the citizenship of her husband. Sadly, the law was not retroactive.
In was a sad period for women, but the 1922 Cable Act meant that women were no longer automatically assigned the citizenship of their husbands.
This works to the benefit of the OP because both grandparents were born in Italy. If the grandfather naturalized before the Cable Act was in place, and the grandmother automatically assumed the US citizenship of her husband without her independent action, this would create a viable 1948 case.
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Just as a point of genealogical interest, the Cable Act creates some confusion when examining historical records. I had my grandmother's NYC birth certificate and her naturalization papers, and I couldn't understand why a US-born woman had to naturalize. This really confused me until I discovered the Cable Act, an act that reversed the pre-1922 law which automatically assigned a woman to the citizenship of her husband. Sadly, the law was not retroactive.
Re: Should I even attempt this ordeal?
mler wrote: 11 Feb 2017, 15:36 Was your grandmother born in Italy as well? If so, and they married before 1922 (likely, since that's when your dad was born), that would be before the Cable Act was passed. Pre-Cable Act, women automatically naturalized with their husbands. If you do find that your grandfather naturalized before your father was born, but after his marriage, you would have a path through your grandmother. It would be a 1948 case, however.
Oh my, this is so confusing! I believe the timeline went something like this ....Im nearly certain they married before coming here. My grandmother was italian as well. They came here in April 1909. My Uncle was born in December 1909 here nearly 9 months to the date of their arrival. I believe that if my grandpa did naturalize it happened around 1919-1920. My father was born in 1922. From what i have read, if my estimations are accurate i would think that I am disqualified because of my Grandpa naturalizing 2 years prior to my fathers birth. I didnt think my grandma was significant in the picture because my dad was born pre 1948 and she gave up her citizenship if she naturalized. I am only drawing some conclusions based on what I've found though. Thank you for giving me something to look into! I am prepared for disappointment but hoping for good news.
Re: Should I even attempt this ordeal?
Kathy, I'm sorry you are being confused. Your situation is similar to mine except that your grand-father naturalized and lost his Italian citizenship BEFORE your father was born so you are disqualified from applying through your father's line.
You would also be disqualified if your grand-mother naturalized at some point on her own before your father was born. If she naturalized after your father was born, you would also be disqualified because your father was born before 1948. But in this situation, you could have a 1948 case through the Italian courts. You would need to find out if and when your grand-mother naturalized on her own.
However, I would like to clear up the following misinformation posted in this thread and that is when your grand-father naturalized in 1919-1920, his Italian born wife was NOT naturalized with him and you will find no information whatsoever on his naturalization paperwork that indicates his wife was also naturalized. The Cable Act in effect at that time did NOT affect MEN who naturalized and were married to foreign women. It only affected American women who married foreign men. Those American women lost their US citizenship by marrying foreign men. Your grand-mother was not American so you don't have to be concerned with this at all.
Also, every adult person who naturalizes in the United States is required to know enough of the English language to pass a citizenship test. Italian women who came to the US in the early 20th century did not have a good command of the English language. They were in the home caring for their families with no time to go to school and learn English so they could not have been naturalized along with their husbands even if they wanted to. Later when the roles of Italian women changed and they were working outside of the home (in dressmaking, for example), they learned enough English to become naturalized on their own. But as long as the husband was naturalized, it really wasn't necessary for Italian women to do so. For example, one of my grand-mothers who arrived in 1912 at the age of 26 was not naturalized until 1980. And my other grand-mother who arrived in 1919 became naturalized after her first born son started going to grade-school because at this point in time, she was spending time outside of the home and learning English.
Mler, stop confusing this issue. Your grand-mother was not Italian. She was American and lost her American citizenship because she married a foreigner. The Cable Act never applied to Italian women.
You would also be disqualified if your grand-mother naturalized at some point on her own before your father was born. If she naturalized after your father was born, you would also be disqualified because your father was born before 1948. But in this situation, you could have a 1948 case through the Italian courts. You would need to find out if and when your grand-mother naturalized on her own.
However, I would like to clear up the following misinformation posted in this thread and that is when your grand-father naturalized in 1919-1920, his Italian born wife was NOT naturalized with him and you will find no information whatsoever on his naturalization paperwork that indicates his wife was also naturalized. The Cable Act in effect at that time did NOT affect MEN who naturalized and were married to foreign women. It only affected American women who married foreign men. Those American women lost their US citizenship by marrying foreign men. Your grand-mother was not American so you don't have to be concerned with this at all.
Also, every adult person who naturalizes in the United States is required to know enough of the English language to pass a citizenship test. Italian women who came to the US in the early 20th century did not have a good command of the English language. They were in the home caring for their families with no time to go to school and learn English so they could not have been naturalized along with their husbands even if they wanted to. Later when the roles of Italian women changed and they were working outside of the home (in dressmaking, for example), they learned enough English to become naturalized on their own. But as long as the husband was naturalized, it really wasn't necessary for Italian women to do so. For example, one of my grand-mothers who arrived in 1912 at the age of 26 was not naturalized until 1980. And my other grand-mother who arrived in 1919 became naturalized after her first born son started going to grade-school because at this point in time, she was spending time outside of the home and learning English.
Mler, stop confusing this issue. Your grand-mother was not Italian. She was American and lost her American citizenship because she married a foreigner. The Cable Act never applied to Italian women.
Re: Should I even attempt this ordeal?i
Jennebet, you need to understand the law pre-Cable Act, which apparently you do NOT. All your examples are after the law was passed. Please read and try to understand the following summary from the website of the National Archives (a direct quote) and stop spreading inaccurate information.
New laws of the mid-1800s opened an era when a woman's ability to naturalize became dependent upon her marital status. The act of February 10, 1855, was designed to benefit immigrant women. Under that act, "[a]ny woman who is now or may hereafter be married to a citizen of the United States, and who might herself be lawfully naturalized, shall be deemed a citizen." Thus alien women generally became U.S. citizens by marriage to a U.S. citizen or through an alien husband's naturalization. The only women who did not derive citizenship by marriage under this law were those racially ineligible for naturalization and, since 1917, those women whose marriage to a U.S. citizen occurred suspiciously soon after her arrest for prostitution. The connection between an immigrant woman's nationality and that of her husband convinced many judges that unless the husband of an alien couple became naturalized, the wife could not become a citizen. While one will find some courts that naturalized the wives of aliens, until 1922 the courts generally held that the alien wife of an alien husband could not herself be naturalized.(3)
New laws of the mid-1800s opened an era when a woman's ability to naturalize became dependent upon her marital status. The act of February 10, 1855, was designed to benefit immigrant women. Under that act, "[a]ny woman who is now or may hereafter be married to a citizen of the United States, and who might herself be lawfully naturalized, shall be deemed a citizen." Thus alien women generally became U.S. citizens by marriage to a U.S. citizen or through an alien husband's naturalization. The only women who did not derive citizenship by marriage under this law were those racially ineligible for naturalization and, since 1917, those women whose marriage to a U.S. citizen occurred suspiciously soon after her arrest for prostitution. The connection between an immigrant woman's nationality and that of her husband convinced many judges that unless the husband of an alien couple became naturalized, the wife could not become a citizen. While one will find some courts that naturalized the wives of aliens, until 1922 the courts generally held that the alien wife of an alien husband could not herself be naturalized.(3)
Re: Should I even attempt this ordeal?
So just to clarify. Before 1922, a woman automatically naturalized with her husband (unless she was Native American, Asian, or black and thus disqualified).
If your grandfather did indeed naturalize before 1922, your grand mother automatically became a citizen with him. Such automatic naturalizations have been successfully challenged by 1948 attorneys, and you would have a viable 1948 case.
And, no, the wife did not receive a naturalization certificate; Nor did the minor children who naturalized with their parent.
If your grandfather did indeed naturalize before 1922, your grand mother automatically became a citizen with him. Such automatic naturalizations have been successfully challenged by 1948 attorneys, and you would have a viable 1948 case.
And, no, the wife did not receive a naturalization certificate; Nor did the minor children who naturalized with their parent.
Re: Should I even attempt this ordeal?
Why do you insist on applying this law enacted in 1855 when there were few, if any, Italian women in the United States at that time? The great wave of Italian immigration began in 1900 and this law was aimed at very few Italian immigrant women and applied mostly to immigrant women of other ethnicities who arrived in the United States years before Italians started to arrive. This would be some British and German women but mainly Irish women, who's native tongue was English -- and that's EXACTLY why it was changed in 1922 when women immigrants started to arrive who's native tongue was NOT English. Why on earth would the United States have an interest in automatically naturalizing non-English speaking women just because their husbands were naturalized? My grand-father could read and write English; my grandmother could not. The children didn't speak English either until they went to school. Unfortunately, the Italian women never went to school. So again, why must you insist on confusing Italian-Americans who arrived much later than Irish-Americans with your constant drivel about the Cable Act when it barely applies to Italian women at all?
