Citizenship Fail

[mler]

You really think she would have had to go through the courts to have her child accepted as an Italian? Wow! Must have been a lot of court cases during the war.

[jennabet]

During the war, if not the formal court, authorities in the commune's, were able to discern, by live witness reports, testimony of grand-parents, etc. who the parents were of an illegitimate child.

[mler]

Ok this is getting crazy, but I will give it one last try.

Live-witness reports? Really? Unless the grandparents were observers at the time of conception (and I certainly hope not) there is only one live witness, and that would be the mother. So I guess she would be responsible for informing comune officials who was the father of her child. Oh, wait--she did do just that, on the birth certificate.

She doesn't herself put the child's name on the certificate. She makes a report to the comune, and they do. From that time on the child is considered the son/daughter of whomever the comune officially lists as his/her parents (marriage certificate or not).

In any case--testimony of mother, grandparents, neighbors, whoever--once the comune lists the parents on the birth certificate, it is official. The consulate has no business rejecting the official record of the comune, and this should be legally challenged.

[jennabet]

She doesn't herself put the child's name on the certificate. She makes a report to the comune, and they do. From that time on the child is considered the son/daughter of whomever the comune officially lists as his/her parents (marriage certificate or not).

Oh so the commune must recognize that the Pope is the father of this unmarried woman's child because she says so? Don't make me laugh. An unmarried woman cannot pick a name out of hat in Italy and claim he's the father of her child. If that man married her, then YES, he's the father of her child. But if there is no marriage license, there is no proof as to who the father is. You don't have to like it but that's how it works in Italy and the consulate is absolutely correct. Why else do you think the consulate's instructions ask for a marriage certificate in addition to a birth certificate.

[mler]

Ridiculous! The comune would not register the Pope as the father of the child. The comune is not forced to recognize anything. However, when it DOES recognize, when it places a man's name on the birth certificate, it is an official and legal acceptance of that claim. Without a challenge, the parents listed on the birth certificate are legally accepted as such. (By the way, a marriage is no guarantee that the husband is a child's father.)

What you are saying is that without a marriage certificate, birth certificates in Italy cannot be accepted as valid. All holders of birth certificates must also also present marriage certificates for any official action. That makes no sense.

The consulates also ask for death certificates, and these, too, have absolutely no purpose in demonstrating a citizenship claim.

As the OP correctly notes, others have obtained citizenship recognition without marriage certificates and a lawyer consult will confirm this.

[jennabet]

What you are saying is that without a marriage certificate, birth certificates in Italy cannot be accepted as valid. All holders of birth certificates must also also present marriage certificates for any official action. That makes absolutely no sense.

No I'm not saying that at all and neither is the consulate. We are saying that without a marriage certificate and for the purposes of Italian citizenship by blood there is no proof that the man named on the birth certificate is the father of the child. The child may have been given this man's name, but it can't be proved that he has this man's blood because the parents are not married and in this case deceased.

In addition, I have lived in Italy for 17 years. Italians do NOT repeat NOT use birth certificates for any official action so please stop putting so much importance on a birth certificate. It's a document that is recorded in the commune to show a birth. It does not prove who the father is if the mother is not married to the man she named as the father.

As far as others obtaining Italian citizenship through the paternal line without a marriage license proving the father was married to the mother, this is heresay. I personally don't know of anyone who has done so this way and literally all of the consulates ask for a birth certificate AND a marriage certificate and will deny an applicant without the proper documents. End of story.

[mler]

Wow! So many assumptions here, I don't know where to begin.

The first is your assumption that the husband in a marriage is automatically the "blood parent" of any child born during that marriage. Many cuckholded husbands would beg to differ.

Do you use marriage certificates for official action in Italy? I don't think so. Please stop putting so much emphasis on marriage certificates. They are documents that show two people were married, nothing more.

Most of what is posted on-line is hearsay (including your own posts). What the consulates ask for and what they accept are not always the same, as I can attest from my own experience. But my stated experience is also hearsay. Common sense should prevail.

End of story

[jennabet]

AlliG, if you have still not been able to come up with the marriage license of your grand-parents for your citizenship application, you might want to look at the "Italian Geneaology" section and read specifically the thread entitled, "Info on Graziano Mancuso and Maria Ridolfo - Nicosia, Sicily". It details, specifically, what is required in Italian law for the child of an unmarried mother, to be recognized by his father.

[spencerhahn]

Find the law of the state in which the birth occurred. In the United States, an unmarried woman can't add a father's name to a birth record without the consent of the father or a court order. You could certainly get a court order declaring the father named on the birth record to be the birth father.

[AlliG]

Thanks for everyone's insight. I have a lawyer friend in Rome that may help me, but wondering if anyone here dealt with this? It seemed like it was just my guy at the Consulate making his own interpretation of the rule, as I know others who have had their cases processed with the same missing information. In addition to the birth certificate, my father is listed on the naturalization certificate as the son of my grandfather. These are legal documents and I will just have to try going about this another way.

[jennabet]

The father's name on the birth certificate and the son's name on the naturalization certificate may be legal documents which report events that happened in the United States but neither of those events prove who the father of a presumably unmarried woman's child is according to Italian requirements. Without a marriage license or someone who can provide a live witness report of who the father is (see recommended thread), I don't see how Italian citizenship could have ever passed to your father and apparently the consulate sees it the same way.

[mler]

Live witness???? I would hope the only live witnesses are the parents.

Actually, the consulate has ample evidence that your father is your grandfather's child. First, they have the evidence provided by your grandmother (your grandfather's name on the birth certificate). Second they have evidence provided by your grandfather (who legally attested on his naturalization papers that your father is his son). Since both your grandmother and your grandfather were the only two people present at conception, their legal statements should be accepted. If the consulate refuses to believe the information provided on those two legal documents because they were issued in the US, why would they accept a US-issued marriage document as having greater validity?

(BTW, nowhere in Italian citizenship law is it stated that Italian citizenship is only conferred by parents who are married, and I doubt even the consulate believes that marriage automatically confirms parentage. They are really not that naive.)

The consulates' decisions have been overturned again and again in Italian courts. There is little doubt this stupidity will also be overturned.

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Regarding the thread referenced by jennebet, in that case an addendum was made to a birth certificate following the marriage of his parents. That marriage (and the addendum) had the effect of "legitimizing" that child. However, even before this marriage, the child was an Italian citizen because his father was Italian (even though he was not married to the child's mother).

[jennabet]

AliG, I forgot to ask. Is your grand-mother's name listed on your grand-father's naturalization certificate as his wife? My grand-mother's name IS listed on my grand-father's naturalization certificate but that's because they were legally married and also the reason the consulate had no question regarding who my father's father was and that Italian citizenship definitely passed to him.

[mler]

How nice for you. However, the answer should be obvious. The grandfather could legally list only his children. Since he wasn't married, he had no wife to list. Surely you're not suggesting that AliG's grandfather lied on his naturalization papers!!!!

You do understand that AliG is not claiming her father was legitimate, only that he is the child of the man who claimed him as his child. And, according to Italian law, the son of an Italian citizen was also an Italian citizen, with or without a wife.

[jennabet]

Actually, the consulate has ample evidence that your father is your grandfather's child. First, they have the evidence provided by your grandmother (your grandfather's name on the birth certificate).

(BTW, nowhere in Italian citizenship law is it stated that Italian citizenship is only conferred by parents who are married, and I doubt even the consulate believes that marriage automatically confirms parentage. They are really not that naive.)
Regarding the thread referenced by jennebet, in that case an addendum was made to a birth certificate following the marriage of his parents. That marriage (and the addendum) had the effect of "legitimizing" that child. However, even before this marriage, the child was an Italian citizen because his father was Italian (even though he was not married to the child's mother).

The consulate doesn't have to accept as ample evidence the word of an unmarried woman as to who the father of her child is. That's because the consulates represent the State of Italy and not the USA. In Italy the child would be a citizen whether or not he was legitimized because unless the woman was involved with a foreigner (a fact that would be obvious to all if it were true) every man who could have possibly fathered her child was an Italian citizen. Therefore it doesn't have to be stated in Italian citizenship law that only children of married parents can be Italian citizens. However, in this case which did not occur in Italy and where there is no marriage certificate, the mother could indeed have been involved with a foreigner and someone who is not Italian at all that fathered her child and the consulate cannot simply take her word for it.