Confused About Great Grandfather, Great-Great Grandfather Scenario

[datxcali]

Datxcali, there are several more things to consider.

Since you cannot provide the consulate with the 1920 census record they require, the draft registration may be an adequate substitute.

Do make a diligent attempt to locate death records because his death pre-1920 explains the lack of census records.

You may want to contact Catholic cemeteries and churches in the upstate vicinity where the accident took place as well as the local municipalities.

Thanks again for the help!

I do have a copy of the 1915 New York Census with him on it. It shows him living in a household with his parents, his wife, and his two oldest children (the second of which is my grandfather).

Will that do?

[datxcali]

EDIT: After looking at the 1920 US Census, my great-grandmother is listed as a "naturalized citizen", but in the 1915 New York Census, they are both listed as "aliens".

Although it does say on that her naturalization occurred in 1915 so I guess that would be proof, but then I need to obtain that record.

[mler]

This is great information.

If the 1920 census record is correct (they were not always) your great grandmother may have naturalized between her husband's death in 1918 and the 1920 census. Pre-Cable Act laws would not have permitted her to naturalize on her own behalf while her husband was still living. You have an easy 1948 case through her.

However, since both were listed as aliens in 1915, if you are able to obtain a "no-record" certificate for your great grandfather (or naturalization records for him sometime between 1915 and his death in 1918), you have a straightforward case you can make through the consulate.

The inconsistency: If your great grandmother did indeed naturalized in 1915, she would have had to naturalize through her husband. This conflicts with the information he provided on his draft registration document, but this is a distinct possibility.

1. He may have misinterpreted the question on the draft registration form as asking about nationality rather than citizenship.
2. Since he showed a definite interest in obtaining US citizenship in 1912, it is not unlikely he made a second attempt, maybe in 1915.

For those two reasons, you should search for 1915 naturalization records in his name. If you find them, your path is very easy.

Happy hunting.

[mler]

For a better explanation of pre-Cable Act laws, I've copied this from the National Archives. Because of these laws, it may well be worth your while to check if a naturalization record for your great grandfather exists from 1915. Take particular note of the fourth sentence.

Btw, these laws were in place from 1855 until 1922 when the Cable Act was enacted.

New laws of the mid-1800s opened an era when a woman's ability to naturalize became dependent upon her marital status. The act of February 10, 1855, was designed to benefit immigrant women. Under that act, "[a]ny woman who is now or may hereafter be married to a citizen of the United States, and who might herself be lawfully naturalized, shall be deemed a citizen." Thus alien women generally became U.S. citizens by marriage to a U.S. citizen or through an alien husband's naturalization. The only women who did not derive citizenship by marriage under this law were those racially ineligible for naturalization and, since 1917, those women whose marriage to a U.S. citizen occurred suspiciously soon after her arrest for prostitution. The connection between an immigrant woman's nationality and that of her husband convinced many judges that unless the husband of an alien couple became naturalized, the wife could not become a citizen. While one will find some courts that naturalized the wives of aliens, until 1922 the courts generally held that the alien wife of an alien husband could not herself be naturalized.(3)

[jennabet]

I would not use your great-grandmother as a resource for citizenship. You have a valid case through your great-grandfather and you have already proved he was not naturalized before his death. If he had submitted another petition for citizenship after being denied in 1912, you would have also found the second petition instead of just the first one (each petition has a separate file number) and it's even possible that the non valid first petition would have been completely nullified and not even available on file. Also there would have been a time restriction between when an immigrant could re-apply after being denied, most likely five years (which is the number of years required for an immigrant to have maintained residence in his state before he could file a petition). So your great-grandfather was NOT naturalized in 1915 and you would be wasting your time looking for another set of naturalization documents for 1915. I would go with the proof you already have as long a you also include the death certificate.

[mler]

I tend to agree that the odds are your great grandmother naturalized on her own behalf after her husband's death and your great grandfather remained an Italian citizen.

However, to go through your great grandfather, you will need a "no record" certificate to substantiate your claim (as per consulate instructions).

The USCIS will search for you at your request and will readily provide you with the letter that you need. Their search will definitively establish your great grandfather's status.

The lack of a 1920 census record would not be a problem since you have one for 1915, a year after your grandfather was born. You can also use the draft registration to further substantiate your claim.

Note that the death certificate is also required, so keep searching.

It's possible the consulate would waive the death certificate requirement, since it's not technically necessary to prove citizenship. However, consulates are more strict with their requirements today so you should not count on this. If they ask for something, they expect you to provide it. The consulate will be sending all documents to Italy for registration, and will want a complete file.

Again, should you be stymied because of a missing document, your great grandmother is a viable alternative.

[datxcali]

Thank you for the responses! They have been an amazing help!

I've decided that I will search hard for my great grandfather's records (I want to know what happened to him anyway....as it would put a lay a big family mystery to rest).

I will post updates when I have them.

[mler]

Best of luck datxcali.

I suggest starting with USCIS. They will likely have not only the information you want, but also the documentation you need to begin your citizenship application.

[datxcali]

Thank you for all of your help, mler!

I just ordered an index search from USCIS for my great grandfather. I also discovered that there are plenty of death records available in New York outside of NYC at a central location in Albany. I've placed an order through their site. They did say, however, that this search could take 8 months or longer. So I may just try to proceed through the consulate without that certificate. We'll see.

I will keep this thread updated as kind of a journal of my progress.

[mler]

That's actually a very good plan especially since there is generally a long wait for appointments.

And, thank you for the journal idea. Your experiences will help someone else for sure.

Best of luck.

[datxcali]

So I just had another thought.

I've been reading through italiancitizenship.freeforums.com and found that one consulate has not been very stringent about death certificates. However, this consulate is far away from me (I would need to fly there). My "local" consulate is also far from me (about a 5-6 hour drive). So either way, I would need to take off work for this.

I'm wondering, if I can't find the death certificate, would I be able to apply through the further consulate or would I be restricted to the "local" one?

[mler]

Unfortunately, you have to show residency when you apply (usually a driver's license, deed or rental agreement), and you can only apply at the consulate that serves your jurisdiction.

[datxcali]

Ahhh dang! Well, thanks for the info!

[datxcali]

It's been a while and a lot has happened so I figure I'll post an update.

First, I found out that the New York State Death Index (outside of NYC) is available in a few libraries in New York. My family still lives in New York, conveniently located about 15 minutes from one of those libraries. I went out to visit them and managed to find my great grandfather's death date. It turns out he died in late 1919 (just before the 1920 census). I've since ordered his death certificate and I'm eagerly awaiting its arrival.

Also, I discovered that my great grandfather DID file a second petition for naturalization at the county level. I'm not sure if he naturalized, but based on his volume number, it appears that he most likely did naturalize around 1918. I did place an order for this document as well so I won't know this for sure until it arrives.

In the meantime, I'm working on correcting the various spelling errors and middle name inclusions/exclusions on other documents that I have. I'm considering going for a "one-in-the-same" court order for three people: great grandmother (whose first and last name is incorrect on a few documents), grandfather (who added a middle name in some documents), and grandmother (whose name on her birth certificate is drastically different from the name she used throughout her life).

Does anyone have experience with these kinds of court orders?

[Bisceglie2NYC]

Congrats on finding the death certificate, datxcali. I'm currently in the same position, where I can't find my GGGF's death certificate, so I found your thread very helpful. If you don't mind me asking, what libraries have the New York State Death Index? I'm also a native New Yorker, and I figured it might be worth a shot to try searching this library on the off chance he died outside of NYC(He disappears after the 1930 census, but my GGGM is listed on the 1940 census as widowed). Thank you for any tips you may be able to provide and best of luck with the rest of the process; it sounds like you are getting close.