1948 Case with Luigi Paiano

[Pufnstuf]

Hi Edinelson. Our family had our court date the same day as you (1/24/2017) with judge BIANCHINI DANIELA as well. The last update to our case log are in January.

24/01/2017 - IN DECISIONE CON RINUNCIA TERMINI PER CONCLUSIONALI
25/01/2017 - ANNOTAZIONE

It's been a little over 4 months so far, and I'm trying to be patient. Good to know I'm not the only one waiting.

[Pufnstuf]

Hi All

The hearing of my case was in January 2017 and so far (Jun 1st) Judge Daniela Bianchini did not publish the sentence. Long time waiting. Anyone in the same situation?

Edinelson

In the same boat...

24/01/2017 - IN DECISIONE CON RINUNCIA TERMINI PER CONCLUSIONALI
25/01/2017 - ANNOTAZIONE

No updates for four months. Good to know I'm not alone though.

[Edienlson]

Thanks Pufnstuf for replying

This is from my case:

Elenco delle righe di storico:

13/11/2015 - ISCRIZIONE RUOLO GENERALE
18/01/2016 - ASSEGNAZIONE A SEZIONE
25/02/2016 - DESIGNAZIONE GIUDICE
30/03/2016 - FISSAZIONE UDIENZA PRIMA COMPAR. / TRATT. (art.183 ai sensi art. 168 bis, c.5)
30/03/2016 - PASSAGGIO ATTI AL PM/PG
13/04/2016 - RITORNO ATTI DAL PM/PG
10/11/2016 - DEPOSITO ATTO NON CODIFICATO
24/01/2017 - IN DECISIONE CON RINUNCIA TERMINI PER CONCLUSIONALI
25/01/2017 - ANNOTAZIONE

I asked Paiano and he told me the "average" is 4 months...but nothing so far.

[JuanLucke]

Hello there,

I have also some unusual situation, however, instead ANNOTAZIONE as in your cases, in my case is [DESIGNAZIONE COLLEGIO]

in the most part of the cases, after the court entry: [IN DECISIONE CON RINUNCIA TERMINI PER CONCLUSIONALI], the most common next entry is: [DEPOSITO MINUTA SENTENZA DEFINITIVA], we were waiting for this second entry and now instead of it we got [DESIGNAZIONE COLLEGIO].

As we have spent (so far) more than a year and a lot of money with hope in this process we are worried about any complication coming up.

Does anybody have any clue what [DESIGNAZIONE COLLEGIO] means in the process?

thank you in advance and have a nice day!

[LauraBtto]

Hello all,

I am currently in a hard crossroad and honestly don’t know what to do, so I am writing in this forum with the hope to get some advice or information….

Here is my situation:
I am one of the successful cases related to the Italian citizenship from woman’s descendants.
Once the transition period ended, the lawyer sent the documents to my ancestral commune/comuna and they were properly transcribed. After a couple of months I received new birth’s certificate from the lawyer to make the appointment in the consulate where I am currently residing (Germany).

I am from Mexico, but I have a temporary residence in Germany for study purposes.

I have the Birth Certificate in my hands and I requested an appointment to the Italian consulate in Germany to request the passport and to register in AIRE.

The problem:
I got the appointment in 4 months, however, my residency permit expires in 2 months. And as a bad situation, some laws or requirements changed in Germany regarding the residence policies leaving me unable to fulfill them so I wouldn’t be able to renew my residency.

My plan is to go to Italy and to stay and to live there.

I can enter legally to Italy using my German still valid residence ID because of the Schengen agreement.

My question:
It would be possible to request my carta d’identita in Italy (in my ancestral commune) directly? I don’t know if I can request the carta d’identita just having my Birth Certificate.

Additional Concern:
I read in this forum a discussion about it, and it was said that first it has to be set a residence in Italy to be able to request the ID Card.

My confusion:
How can I set a residence in Italy if I haven’t got still the ID Card?

Which type or residence I would have to set?…. Or with “set a residence in Italy” means only to rent and apartment and to declare my staying there and then go to request the carta d'identita?

So, to have the ID card is necessary to set a residence, but, to set a residence is necessary to have the card? …..

I know that it could sound very fool for some experienced or informed readers/users, however I am not familiar with the protocols or policies about all this stuff.

I hope you can help me clarifying this mess or providing some feedback.

As you can see my position is desperate, and I can’t believe that being an Italian Citizen I would have to return to Mexico to do all from there because my particular situation.

Regards,
Laura B.

[jennabet]

The only thing I can tell you about your situation is that I was an American citizen living legally in Mexico on an FM3 visa when I submitted my documents for citizenship recognition to the Italian Embassy in Mexico City. During the time my case was being processed, my FM3 visa was going to expire and even though I knew I was going to leave Mexico as soon as I had the Italian passport in my hand, I made sure I paid the extra fee to renew the Mexican visa because I didn't want any complications to crop up.

And here is another example of how important it is to be legally present in any country when you are seeking consular services. After residing ten years in Italy, I decided to go back to Mexico for a while and applied for another FM3 visa at the Mexican consulate in Rome. Because I had my first visa in the US passport, I handed it to the Mexican official in Rome and she asked me if I had an Italian passport (which I did) and then she told me if I wanted a Mexican visa in my US passport, I would have to go back to the USA to apply for it. So, of course, I had the Mexican visa applied to my Italian passport.

It is indeed possible that you may have to go back to Mexico to complete your Italian citizenship process.

[jennabet]

You can apply for residency using an Italian birth certificate and an American passport. At some point after that (usually within one month), the commune will issue you an ID card (carta d'Identita). But you have an Italian birth certificate and a Mexican passport, which you cannot use to enter Italy without a visa, and there is not enough time left on your Schengen visa to get anything done. Unfortunately, once again, I think your only option is to return to Mexico, apply for your Italian passport and then return to Italy.

[JuanLucke]

Hello LauraBtto and Jennabet,

what Jennabet shared is very useful, however and despite I don't have much experience and knowledge about this subject, I think that Laura doesn't need to return to Mexico.

it is a fact what Jennabet said, Mexicans need a visa to enter Italy, however, Laura would enter with her still valid German residence permit that grants her to enter Italy.

once she is in Italy, it doesn't matter if her German permit expires, why? because she is an Italian Citizen and she is in Italy at that moment, where in the world can be a Citizen illegal in his/her own country?

Having said that, once she enters legally in Italy, she should be able to request and obtain her carta d'identita just showing her birth certificate (the given by the ancestral comune once they first transcribed/registered her court papers) and another additional ID that could be a passport, German residency card, or two witnesses as the Italian law states.

Laura has stated her willing to stay living in Italy rather than to return Germany (if I am not wrong) so, as far as I understood her is that she wants to win time do it in Italy (getting ID Card) instead of doing it by a consular path in Germany and then stay living in Italy. and understanding that in Germany the appointment is in 4 moths, you can have your carta d'identita in just 1 week (average ) if you are in Italy.

what I can't say is if at the time that she will ask in the ancestral comune for an ID Card she has to give an Italian Address or to state that she is living abroad and be registered first in AIRE, (that confuses me) and I don't know if it is also mandatory to provide the codice fiscale prior requesting the ID.

please don't take me too seriously, I am just triggering more of your answers, knowledge or thoughts about the subject.

[jennabet]

You must establish residency and it must be verified by the vigile BEFORE a carta d'identita can be issued if you plan to remain in Italy. There may even be a restriction as to what she can do with her Schengen visa, if it doesn't have enough time left on it.

If you are just visiting your ancestral commune, they will issue you a carta d'identita immediately if you have a valid passport and proof of Italian citizenship.

[jennabet]

Let's clarify something here. In December 2001, I arrived at my cousin's home in Italy with my newly issued Italian passport. I did NOT have an Italian birth certificate. My cousin immediately arranged for me to have a codice fiscale as he said I would need this to get ANYTHING done in Italy. One month later, I located an apartment to rent in a neighboring commune by presenting my Italian passport and codice fiscale to the immobiliare (real estate agent) and paying the deposit with cash. The agent instructed me to then take that contract to the Anagrafe and apply for residency. At the Anagrafe, I presented my Italian passport, codice fiscale and rentral contract. The Anagrafe then gave me a receipt and told me I should not do anything else until the vigile came by my apartment and had me sign his document. Before the vigile left, he told me to wait two more weeks and then take all of the paperwork I had accumulated so far back to the Anagrafe to obtain my carta d'identita. After I had obtained the ID card, I was able to open a bank account. During all of this I was never asked for an Italian birth certificate and in nearly 20 years of residence in this commune, the words "Italian birth certificate" have never been mentioned.

If you don't have a residence in Italy for the vigile to come by and verify, you will not be able to obtain a carta d'identita for permanent residence because you cannot prove that you live in Italy (regardless of whether you have an Italian birth certificate). However you may be able to obtain an ID card strictly as a COURTESY provided by your ancestral commune because you are there as a visitor and you have a permanent residence outside of Italy.

In other words you must have obtained a residence in Italy before you can register that residence and get an ID card. I sincerely doubt any real estate agent, landlord, etc. will do business with you if all you have is an Italian birth certificate and an about to expire student visa. If you take the courtesy card and return to Germany, you will not be able to get back to Italy because your Mexican passport is invalid, your Schengen visa has expired and the courtesy ID card you have been issued will not indicate on the back of the card that it's "valida per l'espatrio" - valid to use outside of Italy. These kind of cards are only issued to Italians that have a residence verified by the vigile.

Once again, you need to go back to Mexico, complete the process and come back to Italy with an Italian passport.

[JuanLucke]

jennabet,

I recognize your knowledge and more than that your experience in this matter, I haven't still completed my process and you have done it years ago.... so it worth for me.

However and in my humble opinion, there are a couple of subjects that I would like to bring about:

1) I guess Laura is talking about the birth act because it plus another papers sent by Mr. Paiano is here unique and certainly valid proof of her Italian citizenship due she has not carta nor passport. In your case you haven't deal with the birth act because you didn't need it having the passport, so, her concern or better said.... is about what is possible to do in Italy with the papers sent by the lawyer.

2) In the forums I have read other cases in which they were able to set a residence being tourist or in the middle of the citizenship trial.... I don't know exactly what they do, however, same as you, they shared their experience...

again, this is just my humble opinion and I don't think to be in position to challenge your assertions even better that your posted experience is valuable, but I think Laura doesn't have to give up right now and to think to go Mexico, I think she still can research a little bit more just in case something positive comes up.

At the end, if nothing comes up, she eventaully would go Mexico....

Laura, I encourage you to use your still valid time to finding out for an alternative solution.... but be prepared if at the end you have to return to Mexico (I hope not).

[jennabet]

Here is the bottom line. All Italians living legally in Italy have either a valid Italian passport or a valid carta d'identita to travel with. Why would any Italian who has simply an Italian birth certificate be allowed to travel anywhere with just an informal ID card given as a courtesy? A courtesy ID card is not a travel document and a birth certificate is not a travel document. Yes, Laura can research a bit more but when her student visa expires, she needs to take her Italian birth certificate back to Mexico.

[jennabet]

I'm now correcting incorrect information being posted in another forum by people who are NOT residents in Italy. In order to obtain or renew an Italian passport at a questura in Italy, you must hold legal residence in the commune served by that questura. When I renewed my Italian passport at the questura in my commune, the questura asked if I was a resident, took my phone number and then actually called me at my home to verify it and told me to come back in one week to pick up my new passport.

[baddaboom]

Pufnstuf and Edienlson :

Here is the last two lines of my current case --
09/02/2017 - IN DECISIONE CON RINUNCIA TERMINI PER CONCLUSIONALI
10/02/2017 - ANNOTAZIONE

So I am waiting too !! Hopefully the cases will get deposited soon !!

[Pufnstuf]

Thanks Pufnstuf for replying

This is from my case:

Elenco delle righe di storico:

13/11/2015 - ISCRIZIONE RUOLO GENERALE
18/01/2016 - ASSEGNAZIONE A SEZIONE
25/02/2016 - DESIGNAZIONE GIUDICE
30/03/2016 - FISSAZIONE UDIENZA PRIMA COMPAR. / TRATT. (art.183 ai sensi art. 168 bis, c.5)
30/03/2016 - PASSAGGIO ATTI AL PM/PG
13/04/2016 - RITORNO ATTI DAL PM/PG
10/11/2016 - DEPOSITO ATTO NON CODIFICATO
24/01/2017 - IN DECISIONE CON RINUNCIA TERMINI PER CONCLUSIONALI
25/01/2017 - ANNOTAZIONE

I asked Paiano and he told me the "average" is 4 months...but nothing so far.

Greetings all!

I wanted to post some good news... after a journey of 2 years and 3 months, we finally had a successful ruling on our 1948 case. Now begins the 6 month waiting period. We pursued the case through our GGF line and had 6 people join our case. Our situation required a court case since my father was born in 1945... however it might be of interest to some that his siblings (who were born after 1948, and could have gone the consulate route) also successfully joined the 1948 case too. This saved us a lot of headaches with ordering multiple sets of documents and going to different consulates. Luigi indicated this might not be successful, but it managed to work out in the end.

Here's some key dates for those interested;

4/7/2015 - Started our document collection, which took nearly 9 months.
9/24/2015 - Ordered AR-2 from USCCB - took 60 days to arrive - fortunately I didn't need this doc for my case
9/24/2015 - Ordered C-File from USCCB - took 5 months to receive - fortunately I didn't need this doc for my case
1/18/2016 - All docs collected, apostilled, notarized and sent to Italy for translation
2/1/2016 - Translation of nearly 40 documents begins.
2/9/2016 - Translation of documents complete.
2/11/2016 - Case submitted to court
4/11/2016 - Court date set for Jan 24, 2017
5/25/2016 - Judge assigned to the case
1/24/2017 - Hearing in Roma... there was no need for a second hearing
7/11/2017 - Court publishes decision (after nearly 6 months!) to grant citizenship! - Six month waiting period begins.

Kudos to Luigi... pretty much everything you've heard around here is spot on. He's been patient, attentive and always tries to set reasonable expectations. So far it's been a great experience. While we still have a few more hurdles, I feel like we've accomplished at least one major milestone.