Jure Sanguinis - Research for Spouse

[mickstephen]

Greetings! I'm looking forward to learning a lot from all of you!

My wife and I were doing some research on her family history, and discovered a lot of fascinating things she never knew. I won't go into all the details, but we found out that she might be eligible for Italian citizenship via jure sanguinis. But I wanted to get some advice from you folks first.

Here are the details as we know them…

My wife was born in Chicago in 1969. Her father was born in Chicago in 1937. Both of his parents were from Italy, his father (Mario) from Sicily (we believe Caltanissetta) and his mother (Antoinetta) from Foggia. We can't find any information via immigration or census records for Mario, and the only information we can find for Antoinetta is from the 1940 U.S. Census, after my wife's father was born, which indicates she was an "alien" in the United States, and not a naturalized citizen.

Mario and Antoinetta met and married in Chicago sometime around 1930. (We're still looking for documentation on this.)

Based on this (understandably limited) information, does she have any standing to apply for citizenship under jure sanguinis?


Thanks!

[adelfio]

Welcome to IG website If you give us some last names we could help find some records and get you started

Marty

[Clarissa McAlpine]

Hullo I have just joined this site and Im looking for any records relating to Arturo Giorgi and Anna Assunta Cesira Marlani who emigrated to NZ from Livorno leaving from Hamburg..Annas mother was possibly Maria Ori

thank you very much

[mler]

Based on the very little information you now have, it seems she does qualify.

Best to determine if her grandfather naturalized. If he did not or if he naturalized after her father was born, she has an easy path. If she goes through her grandmother, it would require a lawsuit--not difficult, but more costly.

[mickstephen]

I'm revisiting this thread, as I've got some additional information to share.

I reached out to the Department of Homeland Security to have them do an immigration records check for my wife's grandfather, Mario Nicosia. While there do seem to be mentions of a Mario Nicosia in census and immigration records, there's no match for my wife's grandfather. The DHS has no records of his immigration or naturalization in the United States.

I believe our next step is to apply for a certificate of non-existence of naturalization records via writing to the DHS. And we will also want to begin looking for Mario's birth certificate/records in Italy. The best information we have is that he was born in or near Caltanisetta on 8/18/1896.

We're also working on getting birth and marriage certificates from my wife's parents, along with the notarized form indicating that my wife's father never renounced his Italian citizenship.

I know this will likely be a long road with an uncertain ending, but my wife is thrilled with the idea of discovering and embracing her Italian roots. (She's already done a lot of work learning the language.)


Thanks!

[mickstephen]

Time for another update…

Based on the advice of some other users here, I reached out to Raffaella (suanj) for some help finding information about Mario, my wife’s grandfather. To my amazement, she was able to find his information quickly, providing us with not only his actual name (Mariano), but some additional historical information that we had no idea about. And we’ve already started the process of getting a copy of his certified birth certificate for my wife’s Jure Sanguinis application.

I’m at the point now where I’ve got a few questions.

First, we’re experiencing first-hand just how inconsistent (poor?) US records can be. For example, on his arrival in America in 1922, his name clearly shows up as “Mariano Nicosia,” but in the 1930 Census, his name appears as “Mario Nicosi”. His wife, whom my wife knew as Antionette, has her name spelled a few different ways (“Antoinette,” “Antonetta,” etc.) And her maiden name, Aprile, is later spelled as “April” in the 1940 Census.

Will these discrepancies be a problem with our application? The other information present in these records (address, siblings/children, etc.) is all consistent, but Mariano and Antionette’s names differ.

Second, we’ve been looking everywhere online for any record relating to the marriage of Mariano and Antionette, and we can’t find anything. We think they were married in either Chicago or Pennsylvania, but searches have turned up empty. When my wife visits Chicago later this year, she’s going to spend some time at the Cook County records office searching, but we’re not optimistic.

What we do have are Census records from both 1930 and 1940. The 1930 Census clearly shows Mariano (spelled Mario Nicosi) and Antionette (spelled Antonette) and their four children at the time, all living in the home of Antionette’s parents. In the 1930 Census, both Mariano and his wife are clearly identified as aliens (noted “AL” in the record).

Mariano passed away before the 1940 Census was taken, but we have that record as well. On that record, Antionette is shown living with the children she and Mariano had (including my wife’s father), but Antionette is noted as being a widow. (She is also still noted as an alien as well.)

Now, in light of the fact that we may not be able to find the marriage certificate, will these Census records be helpful to show the unbroken line of descent from Mariano and Antionette, to my wife’s father, and then to my wife? Is there other information that I should be looking for that could be helpful?

Oh, and we are also looking into getting a certified copy of Antionette’s birth certificate. Based on the information on the Italian Consulate’s website, it looks like the only thing we may not have would be the marriage certificate. I’m hoping that’s not a deal-breaker.


Thanks!

[mler]

Some here may tell you that the lack of a marriage certificate is a deal breaker, and indeed it is one of the required documents listed by the consulates. However, logically there is nothing in Italian law requiring this document because even illegitimate natural children obtain citizenship from their parents. With the census documents you possess and no record letters from the various municipalities in which they resided, you should be ok.

The various name discrepancies you describe appear to be diminutives and/or alternate spellings and should be ok as well.

Keep in mind, however, that logic does not always prevail. Much depends on the particular consulate and consular official who reviews your case. They have a degree of discretion in making a determination of what documents they will accept as alternate proof and what discrepancies they will tolerate.

In any case, you will ultimately prevail, either through the consulate or through the courts. I tend to think the consulate will work for you.

Best of luck.

[mickstephen]

Thanks so much for the insight, mier. We're still doing everything we can to find the marriage certificate/license, so we'll hope for the best.

On the "no record letters," I've received word back from USCIS that they have no records for Mario. Do I need to also reach out to the local jurisdiction in which he lived? (That would be Chicago.) It sounds like I also need a "no record letter" from that area saying that they can find no naturalization paperwork either, correct?

Thanks!

[mler]

Most definitely

[mickstephen]

I'll continue to update this thread as our journey moves along. I hope it will help anyone else looking to do what many others have done before us.

The latest…

Our NARA records request came back as "no records found." They were unable to find any paperwork or index reference in the region where Mario would have naturalized. So we'll be contacting NARA to get a letter that certifies no records were found.

My wife also contacted the Cook County Clerk's Office this morning, and that was…hilarious. She said the guy must get fifty calls a day about cases like ours, because ten seconds into the conversation he asked (angrily), "Is this about getting dual citizenship?" My wife was very polite, and explained to him that we may go down that path, but for now, we really only want whatever information we can find.

So they did a search, and the only thing that came up was Mario/Mariano's original "Declaration of Intent." This wasn't a surprise. In searching the records they have online, that document (or record of it) came up. But they were unable to find any additional paperwork for Mario. Which means as best as we can tell through our USCIS, NARA, and local government searches, Mario never finished the process of naturalization, and therefore was still an Italian citizen until his death in 1940.

My wife is writing to the Cook County Clerk to request a certificate/letter of "no records found," which should take a couple of weeks.

At this point, here's what we either have, or are getting, in the way of paperwork:

- Mariano's Original Birth Certificate from Sicily
- Antonia's (His Wife) Original Birth Certificate from Foggia
- Certified 1930 US Census Page (Showing Mario and Antonietta living together, both listed as "AL" or alien, with their children.)
- Certified 1940 US Census Page (Showing Antionetta as a "widow," still listed as "AL", living with her children, including my wife's father.)
- Certificate of "No Records Found" from the USCIS
- Certificate of "No Records Found" from NARA
- Certificate of "No Records Found" from Cook County, Illinois
- Mariano's Death Certificate from 1940
- Dominick's (My Wife's Father) Original Long-Form Birth Certificate from Chicago
- Irene's (My Wife's Mom) Original Birth Certificate
- Dominick and Irene's Original Marriage License/Certificate from Chicago
- My Wife's Original Long-Form Birth Certificate from Chicago
- My Original Birth Certificate
- Our Original Marriage Certificate (From Las Vegas, where we got married by Elvis.)


We'll also (obviously) be ready to supply the necessary forms laid out by the Italian Consulate in Houston, signed and notarized where requested, along with our US passports.

Once we get all of these papers in place, I believe the next steps are to have them translated and authenticated by an Apostille, correct? Given where all of these various papers are coming from, would we need to have an Apostille in Chicago authenticate them, or can that be done locally here in Texas?

(EDIT: I think I just discovered that documents must be authenticated via Apostille in the area they originated. This means that all our Chicago papers would have to be translated, then authenticated in Chicago, and filed by the Illinois Secretary of State via Apostille. Does that sound right?)

And my final question is, would the Houston Consulate even be the right place for my wife to apply for dual citizenship? We've lived in Texas for over a decade now, but we could apply in Chicago if that's more appropriate in my wife's case.


Grazie!

[mler]

You get apostilles from the state in which the documents were issued.

You apply at the consulate that serves the jurisdiction in which you hold residence.

[mickstephen]

I’d like to buy you a beer, mier. That’s the least I could do for all the help you’ve provided.

A question on the apostille process… As I understand it, the authentication an apostille provides is suitable for “vital records” as issued by federal, state or local government, i.e. birth certificates, marriage licenses, death certificates, and the like. In a scenario like ours, where we don’t have Mario and Antonia’s marriage license/certificate, would an apostille authenticate the Census records we’ll have? Or the “letters of no record” we’ll be getting?

Which of the records we’ll have (as listed above) would need to be authenticated by an apostille?

And do we have those records translated first, before involving the apostille, or does that matter?

[mler]

Happy to help.

Birth, marriage, death certificates from the US need apostilles. None needed for census, NARA or USCIS records. Those are national, not state, records. The census is simply confirmation of the no-record letters you will be getting.

You need to send the original documents to the state for the apostilles. At the same time, you can send out a copy of the documents for translation. Sequence doesn't matter.

[mickstephen]

A quick question…

Our USCIS search turned up no records of naturalization. We're waiting on our letter of "no records found" certification.

Our NARA search also turned up nothing. We're also waiting on this official letter.

Our local court search in Cook County turned up a Declaration of Intent, but no other paperwork beyond that. So we can't really get a "no records found" letter from Cook County, since they found records. What should we ask them for instead?

[mickstephen]

And a side note…

When we do get around to filing all our paperwork in Houston, we're likely going to request that our papers be sent to Foggia, as that was where my wife's grandmother was born.