Congratulations and Thank you for posting the information. I am glad your Italian attorney, Luigi Paiano, was able to help you. I've read good information about the attorney and see he has a high success rate in petitioning the Italian authorities/courts to grant jur sanguinis citizenship despite the 1948 rule. Do you know if the attorney has any success in petitioning the Italian authorities/courts to grant jur sanguinis citizenship for those who are faced with the 1912 rule? I'm interested and curious as to what others may be able to offer for advice. I have obtained most of the documents on my own, but there is an area of uncertainty. My lineage is as follows:
GGGF born in Italy 1880
GGGF married in the USA in 1905
*Possibility GGGF naturalised in 1905 (according to one source he naturalised, but name on naturalisation certificate doesn't match name on death certificate. This leads me to believe he may have changed his name, or the naturalisation papers belong to someone else.)
GGF born in 1906
1910 & 1920 census claim he and my GGGM were "aliens" and were not naturalised citizens.
GM born 1932
M born 1957
Me born 1985
Any suggestions or information you have is appreciated.
Grazie,
Genevieve with roots in Sanremo
I Just Beat the 1948 Rule
Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule
Genevieve, how does the name on the naturalization certificate compare to the name on his birth and marriage certificates? If they also don't match, the naturalization is likely not his.
If he did naturalize in 1905, this wouldn't be even a 1912 issue because his son would have been born AFTER his naturalization. That would have ended citizenship even after 1912. (The 1912 rule is only an issue for children born BEFORE their parent's naturalization. After the 1912 law those children were protected; before that law, they were not. But children born after their parent's naturalization were not protected until 1992.)
If he did naturalize in 1905, this wouldn't be even a 1912 issue because his son would have been born AFTER his naturalization. That would have ended citizenship even after 1912. (The 1912 rule is only an issue for children born BEFORE their parent's naturalization. After the 1912 law those children were protected; before that law, they were not. But children born after their parent's naturalization were not protected until 1992.)
Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule
Grazie for your quick reply. To answer your question, his naturalization certificate says "Ferdinando Zanardelli" but his death certificate says "Jerry Zanardelli." According to family he chose an unrelated name to assimilate into American culture. However, the birthdate matches all other records we have along with the marriage certificate to my great-great grandma. However, records from the Italian commune say her name was Josephina but her death certificate says "Josie" and so does the census. I understand "Josie" from Josephine but Jerry from Ferrinando? It doesn't make sense. However, the birthdate matches exactly with the commune, which is why I'm concerned. Again, as mentioned the 1920 census states "alien." Yet, I was informed by a service I hired to obtain documents he naturalised 1905, which makes me ineligible. Sorry to be redundant, but my logic is "prove it's the same person," and I will request a "no record found from NARA??? I'm proud of my Italian heritage and I would love to have Italin citizenship by way of Jur sanguinid. Genevieve
Roots in SR Imperia
Roots in SR Imperia
Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule
Unfortunately, that's not the way it works. The consulates are extremely diligent, but their role is not to prove anything; their role is to determine whether you have submitted sufficient proof to support your claim, and they are particularly picky about no naturalization claims. So the burden is on you.
I was hoping your response would be that there were also discrepancies with the birth and marriage documents, because those are the ones that really matter. The death certificate is required but is the least significant, and discrepancies on that document are often ignored. If the name on the birth and marriage certificates match up to a naturalization, that would end the line, a discrepancy on the death certificate notwithstanding.
Actually, the Jerry/Ferdinando issue is one that is common on death certificates. Since the information is provided by someone in mourning, there are often inaccuracies, and the deceased may have been referred to by a pet name. The birth and marriage certificates, however, are critical in terms of identification.
Your issue, then, is the naturalization, if a naturalization did indeed take place. I suggest that you check carefully on your own. Most consulates require both a federal USCIS search and a county search especially when you are tracing that far back in the line. If your own search does not turn up any naturalization documents at both county and federal level, you should be fine.
If, however, you do find naturalization records, you really don't have a 1912 rule issue. It would then be a simple case of a naturalization before the birth of the child. Until 1992, any naturalization caused a loss of citizenship, and once citizenship was lost, it obviously could not be passed to subsequently born children.
So, it all hinges on whether a naturalization took place in 1905.
Best of luck.
I was hoping your response would be that there were also discrepancies with the birth and marriage documents, because those are the ones that really matter. The death certificate is required but is the least significant, and discrepancies on that document are often ignored. If the name on the birth and marriage certificates match up to a naturalization, that would end the line, a discrepancy on the death certificate notwithstanding.
Actually, the Jerry/Ferdinando issue is one that is common on death certificates. Since the information is provided by someone in mourning, there are often inaccuracies, and the deceased may have been referred to by a pet name. The birth and marriage certificates, however, are critical in terms of identification.
Your issue, then, is the naturalization, if a naturalization did indeed take place. I suggest that you check carefully on your own. Most consulates require both a federal USCIS search and a county search especially when you are tracing that far back in the line. If your own search does not turn up any naturalization documents at both county and federal level, you should be fine.
If, however, you do find naturalization records, you really don't have a 1912 rule issue. It would then be a simple case of a naturalization before the birth of the child. Until 1992, any naturalization caused a loss of citizenship, and once citizenship was lost, it obviously could not be passed to subsequently born children.
So, it all hinges on whether a naturalization took place in 1905.
Best of luck.
Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule
Thank you for all your work and interest. I am searching for an attorney for my case. I see so many have used Luigi Piaino but he is very expensive. I am wondering if anyone has used another attorney and found him/her to be a good choice but more reasonable.
My mother was born in italy in 1911, immigrated with her adult parents in 1913, married my father in 1941 and had me in 1946. She didn't naturalize until 1955. I have her birth certificate from Italy and her naturalization document with the red ribbon. My father was born in the US. I have four original documents from her parents, my grandparents: each of their passports, my grandfather's army discharge papers and my grandmothers' what appears to be a sort of visa. Locations and dates of birth on them are clear and in agreement with their death certificates so I have a post on it's way to each comune requesting copies of their birth certificates. No marriage certificate until I get those. I am looing for an attorney a an alternative to Luigi and hope that others can assist me with this.
Thank you in advance.
My mother was born in italy in 1911, immigrated with her adult parents in 1913, married my father in 1941 and had me in 1946. She didn't naturalize until 1955. I have her birth certificate from Italy and her naturalization document with the red ribbon. My father was born in the US. I have four original documents from her parents, my grandparents: each of their passports, my grandfather's army discharge papers and my grandmothers' what appears to be a sort of visa. Locations and dates of birth on them are clear and in agreement with their death certificates so I have a post on it's way to each comune requesting copies of their birth certificates. No marriage certificate until I get those. I am looing for an attorney a an alternative to Luigi and hope that others can assist me with this.
Thank you in advance.
Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule
Hello;
First of all i want to thank you all for this topic. When i read about the 1948 rule a long time ago, i thought...this is really discriminatory, how come my great grandmother was italian and i am refused citizenship..but if that descent was a man, that would be ok?!
Ok i dont want to make it really long. Please help..
This is my tree of descent
Me>Mother>Grandfather>Great grandmother>Great great grandmother(italian)
Can i challenge the 1948 rule and be granted italian citizenship if i have all required birth certificates?(and obviously the money to pay a lawyer)
Thank you all
First of all i want to thank you all for this topic. When i read about the 1948 rule a long time ago, i thought...this is really discriminatory, how come my great grandmother was italian and i am refused citizenship..but if that descent was a man, that would be ok?!
Ok i dont want to make it really long. Please help..
This is my tree of descent
Me>Mother>Grandfather>Great grandmother>Great great grandmother(italian)
Can i challenge the 1948 rule and be granted italian citizenship if i have all required birth certificates?(and obviously the money to pay a lawyer)
Thank you all
Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule
You supply too little information to allow us to respond.
Years of birth? of marriages? of naturalizations? Were the spouses Italian citizens?
Years matter because of various changes in the law.
Years of birth? of marriages? of naturalizations? Were the spouses Italian citizens?
Years matter because of various changes in the law.
