Security Decree - Coming Monday 9/23

[OpusReticulatum]

Of course you haven't. You have heard the phrase furto d'identità, and it does exist in Italy, and it is a problem.

I went back to edit this line, but I cannot do so now. If I could, I would rephrase this as follows:

"You have never heard the phrase furto d'identità used anywhere, or by anyone? It does exist in Italy, and it is a problem, one that has been publicized and has gained the interest of the Italian government."

Even though original the line was written with a bit of snark (and perplexedness), no one but you can make a definitive statement as to what you have heard and what you have not heard. Therefore, the phrasing in the original post detracts from the argument and point being made. In your reading of the original post, please replace the snarky line with the alternative one presented in this post. Thank you.

[mler]

One thing is important to remember. The people who are submitting applications for recognition are already Italian citizens according to the law. It doesn’t really matter how far back you trace your lineage or how diluted your Italian bloodline may be, if you are the child of a citizen, you are a citizen.

It’s understandable that consulates establish strict guidelines to ascertain the legitimacy of a claim. However, legitimate citizens should not have to wait 8 to 10 years or longer to claim their birthright. If citizenship claim can be handled expeditiously at a comune, the consulates should be able to do so as well.

[jennabet]

Good news. The new security degree brings changes for Jus Matrimony applications as well. Now they will no longer be guaranteed. Since the spouse of an Italian citizen has always had the right to live with him/her in Italy, I was never in agreement that it was necessary for a non Italian spouse living outside of Italy to be entitled to naturalization through marriage. Of course, as it were, it was good for counting absentee votes in favor of the previous government on the Left. But the new government on the Right obviously isn't concerned about receiving votes from liberals living outside of Italy. It's main concern is doing the right thing for the Italian people, and putting "Italy first". Good job, Ministers. Let's make Italy great again.

[mler]

So, to you, that’s good news. Why am I not surprised!

Actually, given the vigorous scrutiny applied to JM candidates, this is unlikely to have a major impact. It will, however, lengthen the time between application and naturalization.

“Let’s make Italy great again.”? Says it all.

[jennabet]

I guess you weren't paying attention during the campaign. The slogan of the side that won was, "Italians First", which many voters in Italy, some of whom I know personally, equate with "Let's make Italy great again".

[mler]

“Italians First” or “Only Italians Living in Italy First” (not those expatriate liberals).

“Italians First” but if you are a legitimate Italian who has not yet been recognized, wait a year or two, or ten.

George Orwell ended “Animal Farm” with the words: “All Animals are Equal, but some are More Equal than Others.” I sincerely hope “Italians First” refers to ALL Italians.

[OpusReticulatum]

The people who are submitting applications for recognition are already Italian citizens according to the law.

Exactly. They are not seeking naturalization. They aren't seeking to become Italians, they are Italians, per Italian law. They are simply petitioning for the Italian government to recognize that fact.

It doesn’t really matter how far back you trace your lineage or how diluted your Italian bloodline may be, if you are the child of a citizen, you are a citizen.

No matter how people might feel about the idea that someone who is 1/8 or even 1/16 Italian can be recognized as an Italian citizen, if the citizenship lineage works out, then the law says that they are Italian. It's not up for debate, and personal feelings - whether pro or con - will not change the fact that they are eligible for citizenship recognition.

It’s understandable that consulates establish strict guidelines to ascertain the legitimacy of a claim. However, legitimate citizens should not have to wait 8 to 10 years or longer to claim their birthright.

Especially since the courts have affirmed that citizenship is a right. There is no reason why someone should have to wait 10 years for something that is their right.

In fact, it is mostly because of the the long consulate wait times that the "unvetted tourists" come to Italy for recognition of their citizenships. If the consulates could handle recognitions more quickly, none of us would even be having this discussion.

If citizenship claim can be handled expeditiously at a comune, the consulates should be able to do so as well.

This is a very good point.

[OpusReticulatum]

Good news. The new security degree brings changes for Jus Matrimony applications as well. Now they will no longer be guaranteed.

JM was never guaranteed, per se. The document requirements had time limits on them, and they included criminal checks. Spouses, at least those with criminal infractions in their histories, faced the possibility of being denied.

And the JM sections of the decreto seem to aimed more at foreigners who marry Italians with the aim of gaining Italian citizenship in order to remain in Italy.

While the new JM policy would still affect JM recognitions abroad, they do not seem to be the focus.

Since the spouse of an Italian citizen has always had the right to live with him/her in Italy, I was never in agreement that it was necessary for a non Italian spouse living outside of Italy to be entitled to naturalization through marriage.

I see your point. However, remember that laws pertaining to residence are more easily changed than laws pertaining to citizenship, especially laws which would revoke lawfully attained citizenship from law-abiding people.

Here is just one scenario which shows why JM citizenship recognition is important:

An Italian-citizen husband and non-Italian wife move to Italy. The wife doesn't seek Italian citizenship, since non-Italian spouses can live in Italy with their Italian spouses.
The residency law changes and non-Italian spouses are no longer guaranteed the ability to live in Italy. The non-Italian wife suddenly faces the prospect that she might be deported. If she had become a citizen prior, deportation wouldn't be a threat.

But the new government on the Right obviously isn't concerned about receiving votes from liberals living outside of Italy.

Good politicians are interested in receiving votes from as many people as they can.

It's main concern is doing the right thing for the Italian people, and putting "Italy first". Good job, Ministers.

Politicians should listen to the needs of their constituents and work to meet those needs.

Let's make Italy great again.

When did it stop being great?

[OpusReticulatum]

“Italians First” or “Only Italians Living in Italy First” (not those expatriate liberals).

George Orwell ended “Animal Farm” with the words: “All Animals are Equal, but some are More Equal than Others.” I sincerely hope “Italians First” refers to ALL Italians.

According to the Lega representative in this article, "La Lega difende prima gli Italiani, anche quelli all’estero.” (The League defends the Italians first, including those abroad.)

http://www.italiachiamaitalia.it/cittad ... sanguinis/

[mler]

According to the Lega representative in this article, "La Lega difende prima gli Italiani, anche quelli all’estero.” (The League defends the Italians first, including those abroad.)

http://www.italiachiamaitalia.it/cittad ... sanguinis/

Never doubted it.

Another reason for a spouse to obtain citizenship: Perhaps an Italian citizen and his wife plan to spend their retirement years in Italy. Unfortunately, a few months after they settle in, the husband dies. Where does that leave his widow if she has not herself obtained citizenship?

[mler]

Repeat Post. Sorry.

[jennabet]

In fact, it is mostly because of the the long consulate wait times that the "unvetted tourists" come to Italy for recognition of their citizenships. If the consulates could handle recognitions more quickly, none of us would even be having this discussion.

Consulates don't have to handle recognitions on your timeline. Italian consulates are in place around the world to serve the needs of Italian citizens living abroad just like the American Embassies and consulates serve Americans abroad. In fact, the Embassy in Rome has started conducting an Outreach service every two years for American citizens living in the areas the Embassy visits. An Italian citizen in Italy would have no right whatsoever to demand anything from the American Embassy, except possibly to be screened for a visa.

Likewise a person holding a passport from a country other than Italy has no basis to demand anything from the Italian government's embassies/consulates around the world, especially someone who has only a remote connection to Italy through one ancient ancestor, or may have never been to Italy, and certainly doesn't have any familiarity with Italian language, culture or traditions.

These people also have no basis to demand service from a commune. Just last week, a published article (I can no longer locate it but will post if I find it again) listed the number of landlords (thousands) in Italy that rented out properties to visitors illegally. The numbers were higher in certain regions like Lazio, Tuscany, Emilia Romagna. As a result, communes who some in these forums like to claim, "turn a blind eye" will no longer be turning a blind eye.

[mler]

Likewise a person holding a passport from a country other than Italy has no basis to demand anything from the Italian government's embassies/consulates around the world, especially someone who has only a remote connection to Italy through one ancient ancestor, or may have never been to Italy, and certainly doesn't have any familiarity with Italian language, culture or traditions.

That’s just the point. They DO have a basis. Despite your opinions about their pedigree, they are legally Italian citizens, and should be treated as such.

[OpusReticulatum]

Consulates don't have to handle recognitions on your timeline.

Consulates don't have to meet anyone's individual timeline, but citizenship recognitions should be handled at least somewhat expeditiously. Wait times of several years, or ten years, just for an appointment is a little much.

And, as I said in the passage you quoted, if the consulates didn't have such wait times, and didn't take so long, then we wouldn't be talking about this. You wouldn't have any of the "tourists" who "flock" to the comuni seeking citizenship recognition, which you find so disturbing. Citizenships would be recognized promtly, there would be few complaints about how long it takes, no disgruntled chatter about it on the Internet, and as a result, people being recognized wouldn't even be on our radar - unless they came here asking for advice.

Also, as mler pointed out, the comuni can process citizenship recognitions quickly. So, the consulates should be able to as well.

Italian consulates are in place around the world to serve the needs of Italian citizens living abroad just like the American Embassies and consulates serve Americans abroad.

And the people seeking recognition of Italian citizenship ARE Italians citizens living abroad. Why you are unwilling to accept this fact is baffling.

An Italian citizen in Italy would have no right whatsoever to demand anything from the American Embassy, except possibly to be screened for a visa.

What does this have to do with Italian citizens seeking recognition of their citizenship at the consulates? Apples and oranges.

Likewise a person holding a passport from a country other than Italy has no basis to demand anything from the Italian government's embassies/consulates around the world,

If they were born with JS Italian citizenship and they have the documentation to prove it, they have the right to have that citizenship recognized through the consulate.

especially someone who has only a remote connection to Italy through one ancient ancestor, or may have never been to Italy, and certainly doesn't have any familiarity with Italian language, culture or traditions.

Again, you are projecting what you WANT the situation to be, based on your own personal feelings on the subject, not what the situation actually is.

Fact 1: People of Italian descent who have inherited Italian citizenship and who are seeking recognition of that Italian citizenship ARE Italian citizens - just as you were before you sought recognition, at the time you applied for recognition, and after your received recognition.

Fact 2: The people mentioned above who visit the consulates for the purpose of citizenship recognition ARE Italian citizens making use of a service provided by the Italian government for Italian citizens - just as you were when you went to one and applied for recognition.

Fact 3: The Italian government allows citizenship to be passed down without generational limit. It can be argued whether or not it should be that way, or if there should be generational limits, but the fact is, right now, that is the law. A person with JS Italian citizenship who is of 1/16 Italian ancestry is just as much an Italian citizen as someone with JS citizenship who is of 100% Italian ancestry. Whether you or I like it or not, that is how it is right now. And referring to such people with condescension or in disparaging manner will not change the reality one bit.

Fact 4: The Italian government does not put any stipulations on JS citizenship which mandate Italian familial ties, cultural ties, cultural knowledge, or any ability with the Italian language. And to be frank, it would be illogical to do so, because JS citizenship is citizenship transmitted at birth. It's not contingent on being able to speak Italian when one grows up. JS citizenship is not naturalization, which involves a foreigner petitioning to become an Italian citizen - which is a situation in which Italy can indeed put preconditions on the receipt of citizenship. JS applicants from outside of Italy may be foreign-born, but they're already Italian citizens from the moment they are born.

Fact 5: As noted in Fact 3, the Italian nationality laws do not take into account how much of one's ethnic ancestry is Italian. Nor does it, as noted in Fact 4, take into account one's Italian cultural literacy. All it cares about is whether or not one's ancestor lost their Italian citizenship before he or she could pass it on to the next person in the generational chain. That's it. That's all that matters to the Italian government. And because of that, we have the peculiar situation in which a person of 1/8 or 1/16 Italian ancestry, who might not have any cultural affiliation with Italy, can be born an Italian citizen and walk into their local consulate and obtain recognition of that citizenship . . . but someone who is 100% Italian, who visits Italy each year, is fluent in Italian, is close to their family in Italy, etc. is NOT born an Italian citizen, because his/her grandparents all naturalized before his/her parents or born (or because his/her parents naturalized before he/she was born). Again, whether or not you or I like it, whether or not we think it is weird, or however else we feel about it, no matter how we might think things should be different, or whether we like things just as they are . . . it makes no difference. That's how Italian citizenship works at present.


No matter our opinions, feelings, senses of how things should be or shouldn't be, those are the facts. If the laws change (and they very well might) some of those facts will change (at least for people born after the changes), but for now, that's how it is.

These people also have no basis to demand service from a commune.

As noted in a previous post, if they get a long-term visa, the law allows them to obtain residency. If they can obtain residency, they are allowed to make use of the services of the comuni. That's what the comuni are for, to provide services for residents. And if they were born with JS Italian citizenship and they have their documentation with them, they have the right to apply for citizenship at the comuni, in accordance with what the law allows.

And one additional point: The "these people" to whom you are referring are fellow Italian citizens. Why you write of them as though you view them as on par with something along the lines of rubbish is very strange. If it's because they are not yet recognized, and therefore not yet worthy, just remember that when you first walked into your consulate to seek citizenship recognition, you were one of "those people," too.

Just last week, a published article (I can no longer locate it but will post if I find it again) listed the number of landlords (thousands) in Italy that rented out properties to visitors illegally. The numbers were higher in certain regions like Lazio, Tuscany, Emilia Romagna. As a result, communes who some in these forums like to claim, "turn a blind eye" will no longer be turning a blind eye.

People who overstay their visas, etc. shouldn't be allowed to get away with it. Nor should landlords be renting to them.

However, this doesn't have anything to do with someone who gets a proper visa, obtains residency, and applies for recognition at a comune.

[jennabet]

A security procedure which has been needed in Italy for quite some time. Please don't think they are only counting migrants.

http://www.ansa.it/english/news/2018/09 ... 47492.html