Paternal line to GGGGF, Can we get Citizenship?

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
stabile
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Paternal line to GGGGF, Can we get Citizenship?

Post by stabile »

Hello Everyone we hope you can help us with this, we need to make sure we can qualify to get Italian Citizenship through GGGGF, maybe is possible???

Here is a quick scenario:

- I was born in Uruguay 1978
-Dad born in Uruguay 1953 living.
-Grandfather born in Uruguay 1926, deceased 2004.
-Great Grandfather born in Uruguay 1896, deceased 1978
-Great Great Grandfather born in Uruguay not sure date of birth, sometime between 1870-1876. Deceased.(have to find out dates for him)
-Great Great Great Grandfather born in Italy 1835, deceased 1904 in Uruguay, not a naturalized citizen of Uruguay, and we have his birth certificate from Italy.
All are paternal lineage and Italian ancestor was not naturalized.

Will this scenario work?

Thanks in advance for your help :)
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mler
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Re: Paternal line to GGGGF, Can we get Citizenship?

Post by mler »

I assume that Uruguay is a jus soli country. If so, that line should work since your ggggrandfather was still living when Italy was unified and your gggrandfather was born after unification as well.

If there were no naturalizations along the way, it’s a direct path (although when you are tracing back that many generations, the likelihood of document errors increases).
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Re: Paternal line to GGGGF, Can we get Citizenship?

Post by lssbdf9193 »

T minus 10, 9, 8

until jennabet rants some mildly extremist nonsense about Italians First and your parents not being Caesar and Cleopatra
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Re: Paternal line to GGGGF, Can we get Citizenship?

Post by jennabet »

lssbdf9193 wrote: 16 Oct 2018, 02:13 T minus 10, 9, 8

until jennabet rants some mildly extremist nonsense about Italians First and your parents not being Caesar and Cleopatra
The population of Uruguay has always had a high percentage of Italians. So this likely means the OP is MORE Italian than you, lssbdf9193, because the male descendants in that line likely married Italian women as well. Again, MORE Italian than you, lssbdf9193, regardless of the number of generations back to find the ancestor born in Italy. Eat your heart out, by the way.
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Re: Paternal line to GGGGF, Can we get Citizenship?

Post by mler »

....and to bring this discussion back on track. According to the facts reported by stabile, he/she is qualified through a direct paternal line. This is true regardless of whether that long line included marriages to other Italian emigres, Spanish emigres, native Americans, etc.

Given the many migrations into and from Italy, there is no way to determine who is more (or less) Italian. The only thing that matters is whether a person is or is not an Italian citizen, and that status is determined by Italian citizenship law.
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Re: Paternal line to GGGGF, Can we get Citizenship?

Post by jennabet »

Oh yes there IS a way to determine who is more (or less) Italian. It's called a DNA test and the result for Italian-Americans who have FOUR Italian grand-parents, with all ancestors beyond them also being Italian for many generations back is predictable, as was mine. You can make jokes about Caesar and Cleopatra (actually it was Antony and Cleopatra and NOT Caesar), and while it is not my personal story, the fact remains that many Italians ARE descended from them. However, as far as invaders go, it's more than apparent that they didn't get to first base with my ancestors.
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Re: Paternal line to GGGGF, Can we get Citizenship?

Post by mler »

My family is like yours, jennebet, Italian on both sides tracing back many generations. However, my Italian-citizen grandkids trace half their line from another European country. And, despite my pedigree, they are just as Italian as I am according to the Italian government. Quite frankly, that’s all that counts.

DNA tests tend to show that our genetic markers are much more varied than we might think. For centuries, people have moved to what is now Italy from distant and not-so-distant lands (Albania, Greece, Spain, Africa) so actually there is no one “Italian DNA.” It varies based mostly on region.

(And though Antony was Roman, Cleopatra was Egyptian. DNA sharing took place even in ancient times. Her relationship with Julius Caesar predated her liaison with Anthony.)

For those interested in Italian genetic history, this is an interesting read:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic ... y_of_Italy
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Re: Paternal line to GGGGF, Can we get Citizenship?

Post by jennabet »

Italians on both sides and even those with just two Italian ancestors can and DO usually contribute SOMETHING about family history, culture, traditions, etc., as do many of the contributors to these forums who are interested in and proud of their heritage, except for YOU and your "pedigree", of course. Call me a doubting Thomas but something sounds NOT quite right and/or up to snuff about that to me. Never has, in fact. I can only call it as I see it but we can assume others may have noticed it as well considering the number of years you have been changing your story. Changing stories, in case you aren't aware are just not credible, less you take us all for a bunch of fools.
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Re: Paternal line to GGGGF, Can we get Citizenship?

Post by mler »

You repeatedly say that my story has changed, but I notice you never post proof of your bizarre assertions.

But there we were having a legitimate conversation on Italian citizenship vs DNA, and when you couldn’t come up with a logical argument, you resorted to your typical gratuitous attack.

You’re right about one thing though. The posters here are not foolish; that’s why issbdf posted his/her comment. YOU are not fooling anyone.

Fortunately, the Italian government does not use the “jennebet standard” to determine who is eligible for citizenship and who isn’t; thus my “half-Italian” grandkids are citizens whether or not you approve (and whether or not you believe they are half Italian); and guess what, they don’t even speak Italian. Neither does my Italian-citizen son. GASP! He makes a great pasta sauce though😊 (And just to be clear, neither facility with the Italian language nor the ability to make a great pasta sauce is a factor in determining Italian citizenship.)
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Re: Paternal line to GGGGF, Can we get Citizenship?

Post by jennabet »

Oh yes, being Italian is all about pasta sauce. Most non-Italians know how to make it too. It is a pity, however, that you constantly feel the need to speak for others. I'm sure you can read issbdf's mind too. By the way, how do you like not being able to ban a contributor to a forum that you try to dominate with your "knowledge"? The good monitors here have always let me know when someone and his or her friends are up to dirty tricks so I wouldn't bother wasting my time if I were you. And please do not EVER assume I am interested in having ANY conversation about anything with you, especially when I do not respond to your comments. Hint, hint. In this thread, I replied to issbdf's sarcastic comment because he/she mentioned me. And yes, for the record, there are MANY, MANY, MANY people more Italian than someone like issbdf applying for Italian citizenship via 1948 and this is just the REALITY. Deal with it.
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Re: Paternal line to GGGGF, Can we get Citizenship?

Post by mler »

And that’s exactly the point. Making pasta sauce, speaking the Italian language, and even sharing a common culture have absolutely nothing to do with Italian citizenship. And, despite your assertions, there is no such thing as “more Italian” or “less Italian.” You’re either a citizen or you’re not. There are no degrees of Italian citizenship.

Unfortunately, you DO respond to my comments. Apparently, you can’t help yourself.

I know you resent being banned from the tapatalk forum, but your negative attitude, frequent inaccuracies and personal attacks gave us no choice.
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Re: Paternal line to GGGGF, Can we get Citizenship?

Post by jennabet »

One more time. How do you like not being able to throw your weight around? LOL, LOL.
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Re: Paternal line to GGGGF, Can we get Citizenship?

Post by mler »

How sad. No need to “throw my weight around.” I can only moderate forums on which I am a moderator. That’s the way it works.

Here, I simply answer questions that are posed and correct your inaccuracies of which, unfortunately, there are many. Of course, you NEVER respond to MY posts except ALWAYS. 😂. Guess you can’t help yourself.
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Re: Paternal line to GGGGF, Can we get Citizenship?

Post by OpusReticulatum »

Sorry, but as a semi-classicist, I have to present this moment of geekness:

I know that the discussion of Julius, Marcus, and Cleopatra started in jest, but since it eventually became an issue, here is some clarification.

Regarding Julius Caesar and Cleopatra, and Marcus Antonius and Cleopatra, and any possible Italian ancestry from them:


Both Julius Caesar and Marc Antony had relationships with Cleopatra, and both relationships bore children.

The child believed to be that of Juilus and Cleopatra, Caesarion, is thought to have died at age 17. How he died, and if he really did, is not recorded.

Cleopatra and Marcus Antonius had three children together: Alexander Helios, Cleopatra Selene, and Ptolemy Philadelphus. The three of them were brought to Rome by Octavian to be paraded in a triumphal march after the defeat of Marcus and Cleopatra. Alexander and Cleopatra would have been around 10 or 11 (they were twins) and Ptolemy would have been around 7. What became of Alexander Helios and Ptolemy Philadelphus is unclear. One Roman historian writes that they were spared death. However, they disappear from the historical record at this point. So, they either died young, or they went on to lead very nondescript lives. Cleopatra Selene married King Juba II of Mauretania (an ancient kingdom in North Africa, around the area of present day Algeria and Morocco). They had a son, Ptolemy, and a daughter whose name was not recorded. Ptolemy became king of Mauretania and had a daughter, Drusilla.


It is unlikely that very many Italians, if any at all, are the descendants of the children Cleopatra bore with either Julius Caesar or Marcus Antonius. If they are, they would be through Alexander Helios and Ptolemy Philadelphus IF they survived into adulthood and remained in Italy. And since we do not know that they did or did not, it is presently impossible to say whether or not they had any offspring of their own.

As for ancestry from the three of them and their other relationships:

Julius Caesar had only one other biological child (and the only one confirmed to have been his biological offspring), a daughter Julia. She married Pompey the Great (who was 30 years older than her), but she appears to have died before having any children.

Cleopatra's only known offspring are the four discussed above, which he had with Julius Caesar and Marcus Antonius.

Marcus Antonius was married four times, and we know the names of five of the children he had with his second through fouth wives. He also had children with his first wife, but we don't know their names or exactly how many he had.

So, if any Italians have any ancestry from any of the three, it would at first appear that the most likely one would be Marcus Antonius.

However . . .

His descendants appear to have not lived in Italy, as they became rulers of areas outside of Italy, mostly in the Bosporan Kingdom.

So, the best place to look for the descendants of Marcus Antonius today might be in Crimea.

His children with his first wife possibly remained in Italy, but since we don't know who they were, we can't really say that anyone in Italy is a descendant of any of them any more so than any other anonymous ancient Roman.
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Re: Paternal line to GGGGF, Can we get Citizenship?

Post by OpusReticulatum »

The population of Uruguay has always had a high percentage of Italians. So this likely means the OP is MORE Italian than you, lssbdf9193, because the male descendants in that line likely married Italian women as well. Again, MORE Italian than you, lssbdf9193, regardless of the number of generations back to find the ancestor born in Italy. Eat your heart out, by the way.

lssbdf9193 only has four posts on this forum. In none of them do they discuss their ancestry. Therefore none of us know the amount of lssbdf9193's Italian ancestry. So, on what basis could anyone claim that others are "MORE Italian" than him/her?
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