Help needed: Am I eligible for Italian citizenship (concerns the 1948 rule and the minor child of a marriage pre-1983)

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Help needed: Am I eligible for Italian citizenship (concerns the 1948 rule and the minor child of a marriage pre-1983)

Post by brody »

Hi everyone,

I have done quite a bit of reading in this forum (and others) and still am not clear on my ability to be recognized as an Italian citizen.

Here is the breakdown:
My step-father's maternal GF emigrated from Italy to NYC in the 1890s. He was married to an Italian citizen in 1906 in NYC. My step-father's mother was born in NYC in 1907. She married my stepfather's father in 1924 in NYC. My step-father's father was born in Italy but naturalized as a US citizen in 1925. So presumably my stepfather's mother remained an Italian citizen per my understanding as she was born in the USA. My step-father was born in 1938. He married a woman (not my mother) and divorced her in 1970. I was born in 1975 (to a different man who my mother never married). My mother married my step-father in 1979, and presumably she became an Italian citizen automatically. All of my brothers and sisters (technically my half-brothers and half-sisters) were born after my mother and step-father were married in 1979.

So - realizing that me and my brothers and sisters will have to challenge the 1948 rule in Rome's court, would receiving a positive judgement allow only them to get Italian citizenship? Or would I potentially benefit as well as I was 4 years old when they were married in 1979? My step-father unfortunately passed away in 2014, but would enjoy us getting Italian citizenship - he was very proud of his roots. My mother is still living.

If I do have a case - would you recommend including all of us in the case presented to the Roman court (or whomever of us is willing to contribute to the legal costs?) Or would I have to have my mother recognized and then go through the process? And would I have lost everything because I'm now 43 and haven't been officially recognized?

I am very grateful for the help of the experts in this forum!!
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Re: Help needed: Am I eligible for Italian citizenship (concerns the 1948 rule and the minor child of a marriage pre-198

Post by jennabet »

When you were born in 1975, your mother, who acquired Italian citizenship through marriage and NOT through blood, was not an Italian citizen so you cannot be included in this type of case. Only the children your mother gave birth to after she became Italian are qualified. This is because in effect when your mother married an Italian citizen in 1979, she became automatically naturalized. If your mother had acquired Italian citizenship by blood, for example from her own Italian parents, then you would also be qualified. Or if your real biological father was Italian you might also have a case through him. But as it is, no, you cannot be recognized along with your half siblings for Italian citizenship.
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Re: Help needed: Am I eligible for Italian citizenship (concerns the 1948 rule and the minor child of a marriage pre-198

Post by mler »

Actually, if someone naturalizes in Italy, their minor children are also naturalized. However, this is not a case of naturalization; this is automatic citizenship acquisition.

The following applies to you:

Re obtaining Italian citizenship after the 1983 citizenship law was enacted:

“By minor children of persons acquiring Italian citizenship. Before 27 April 1983, minor children could not acquire Italian citizenship by this means if they were living abroad from Italy and still retaining a foreign citizenship.”

Since you were still a minor in 1983, this appears to apply. You were not living in Italy, but after 1983, that was no longer a requirement.
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Re: Help needed: Am I eligible for Italian citizenship (concerns the 1948 rule and the minor child of a marriage pre-198

Post by brody »

mler wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 12:12 Actually, if someone naturalizes in Italy, their minor children are also naturalized. However, this is not a case of naturalization; this is automatic citizenship acquisition.

The following applies to you:

Re obtaining Italian citizenship after the 1983 citizenship law was enacted:

“By minor children of persons acquiring Italian citizenship. Before 27 April 1983, minor children could not acquire Italian citizenship by this means if they were living abroad from Italy and still retaining a foreign citizenship.”

Since you were still a minor in 1983, this appears to apply. You were not living in Italy, but after 1983, that was no longer a requirement.
But what is confusing to me is whether it applied retroactively to me since my mother looks to have been a recognizable citizen in 1979 (assuming a positive 1948 verdict). Would the 1983 ruling have applied to any minor child under 18 and automatically made them a citizen as well? I was still under 18 in 1992 as well, when further changes were made to the law.

Thank you!
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Re: Help needed: Am I eligible for Italian citizenship (concerns the 1948 rule and the minor child of a marriage pre-198

Post by mler »

Yes, Law 123, Article 5

E' cittadino italiano il figlio minorenne, anche adottivo, di padre cittadino o di madre cittadina.

Minor children are Italian citizens, even if adopted, if father or mother is a citizen.

So actually, it’s not retroactive. It applied on that date, and your mother was a citizens and you were a minor.
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Re: Help needed: Am I eligible for Italian citizenship (concerns the 1948 rule and the minor child of a marriage pre-198

Post by brody »

So I did more digging and some of the laws seem to be in conflict. How would you interpret them then? Malcom shared the clause in Italian from 1983 previously, and there is more detail listed here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_nationality_law

Italian citizenship can be automatically acquired:
On 27 April 1983 by minor children without Italian citizenship, including children legally adopted per Italian law, who as of the same date had a parent holding Italian citizenship (I would have met this requirement as my mom could have been recognized as a citizen as of 1979 upon marrying my stepfather); or after 27 April 1983 by foreign minor children legally adopted by Italian citizens per Italian law.
By minor children of persons acquiring Italian citizenship. Before 27 April 1983, minor children could not acquire Italian citizenship by this means if they were living abroad from Italy and still retaining a foreign citizenship. (So how would this impact me if my mother received citizenship upon marrying my stepfather in 1979 - again assuming a successful 1948 case?)
Law 123 of 1983
On 21 April 1983, law number 123 was passed, which established that all minor children of an Italian citizen father or mother, including an adoptive parent, were Italian citizens by birth. In the case of dual citizenship, the child was required to select a single citizenship within one year after reaching the age of majority (article 5). The law is understood to have extended Italian citizenship to all minor children of Italian citizens at the moment of the law's entry into effect, even if the children were adopted.
- So as a US citizen, would I have been forced to choose which citizenship to hold when I turned 18 in 1993, and thus have lost Italian citizenship if it was acquired in 1983? Or as the US has jus soli, am I exempt from this? (Haha, nevermind I just read it was repealed in 1986, and thus only applied to individuals born between 1965 and 1967. I'm learning...)

But is this the smoking gun that people in my situation need to show the lawyers? From the citizenship law of 1992, Article 14:

ART.14

1. Minor children of a person who acquires or recovers the Italian citizenship acquire Italian citizenship, if they live together with their parent; but, once they became of full age, they are entitled to renounce it, if they possess another citizenship.

And from an Italian comune: https://www.comune.vicenza.it/cittadino ... 2722,79374

Acquisition of citizenship by minors (art. 14 of Law 91/1992)
When living with their parents, the underage children of individuals who acquired or renewed the Italian citizenship shall acquire the Italian citizenship themselves. After becoming of age, they can renounce their Italian nationality if they already hold another citizenship. Minors can acquire the Italian citizenship if the following conditions are met:
a parent/child relationship exists;
cohabitation.
Art. 12 of the Regulation implementing the Law on Citizenship states that “Cohabitation must be stable and effective and must be appropriately demonstrated with suitable documentation”
_______________________________________________________

Sorry to drive everyone crazy on this - but trying to see what the experts think. Does Article 14 read the same way in Italian?

Thank you everyone in advance!!
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Re: Help needed: Am I eligible for Italian citizenship (concerns the 1948 rule and the minor child of a marriage pre-198

Post by jennabet »

jennabet wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 11:59 When you were born in 1975, your mother, who acquired Italian citizenship through marriage and NOT through blood, was not an Italian citizen so you cannot be included in this type of case. Only the children your mother gave birth to after she became Italian are qualified. This is because in effect when your mother married an Italian citizen in 1979, she became automatically naturalized. If your mother had acquired Italian citizenship by blood, for example from her own Italian parents, then you would also be qualified. Or if your real biological father was Italian you might also have a case through him. But as it is, no, you cannot be recognized along with your half siblings for Italian citizenship.
Quoting Luigi Piano, "To get Italian citizenship through marriage does not allow to transmit the Italian Citizenship to own children. Sorry you do not qualify through your mother".

So I was right again! No surprise here. Your mother was NOT Italian when you were born so unlike your half siblings who's mother WAS Italian when they were born, you do not qualify through your mother.
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Re: Help needed: Am I eligible for Italian citizenship (concerns the 1948 rule and the minor child of a marriage pre-198

Post by mler »

No you were wrong, and so is Luigi. He apparently does not want to deal with anything beyond 1948 issues. As Malcolm noted, he has been wrong in the past when he stated a woman who acquired citizenship through marriage can NEVER transmit that citizenship

As Malcolm explained, Brody, the law has changed repeatedly. You became a citizen in 1983 and maintained that citizenship. The requirement that your choose a citizenship ended in 1986 as Malcolm already noted.

As Malcolm suggested, contact another lawyer, and reference the applicable laws.

You also may want to avoid double posting. Choose your forum (preferably where posters know citizenship law) and stay with it.
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Re: Help needed: Am I eligible for Italian citizenship (concerns the 1948 rule and the minor child of a marriage pre-198

Post by jennabet »

I agree you should choose your forum, Brody and take all of the "good advice" from the arrogant, barely Italian New Yorkers who have always challenged all of the consulates, all of the comunes and now the Italian attorneys. I'm pleased you came back to report that the advice they provide is convoluted nonsense when most just take all of their advice and give them thanks for keeping their hopes alive, but never return to announce that the advice was wrong. Or maybe they do return but are shut down/and or silenced or banned for making them look like incompetent fools.
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Re: Help needed: Am I eligible for Italian citizenship (concerns the 1948 rule and the minor child of a marriage pre-198

Post by mler »

jennabet wrote: 27 Sep 2018, 14:00 I agree you should choose your forum, Brody and take all of the "good advice" from the arrogant, barely Italian New Yorkers who have always challenged all of the consulates, all of the comunes and now the Italian attorneys. I'm pleased you came back to report that the advice they provide is convoluted nonsense when most just take all of their advice and give them thanks for keeping their hopes alive, but never return to announce that the advice was wrong. Or maybe they do return but are shut down/and or silenced or banned for making them look like incompetent fools.
Perhaps we should clarify why someone might be (was) banned from a forum.

1. A poster who believes that there are categories of Italian citizenship, and that Italians who live outside of Italy are not as Italian as she is.

2. A poster who repeatedly attacks other posters (incompetent fools, arrogant). In fact I recall a recent nasty post in which I was referred to as an “old troll.” The moderators here wisely chose to delete that bit of nastiness.

3. A poster who claims knowledge of the citizenship process based on her own unique experiences and beliefs and ignores (or doesn’t understand) citizenship law.

4. A poster who regularly discourages applicants who she believes are not “real” Italians.

BTW, you state “...unlike your half siblings whose mother WAS Italian when they were born...” Luigi Paiano disagrees. He stated that a woman who automatically obtained citizenship before 1983, could not transmit that citizenship to her children. So who is right, you or Luigi? In this case it is you who are correct.
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Re: Help needed: Am I eligible for Italian citizenship (concerns the 1948 rule and the minor child of a marriage pre-198

Post by jennabet »

Luigi Piano did not say "to her children". He said "to her own children", meaning any children she had before she obtained Italian citizenship through marriage to a man who is NOT the father of the OP. And yes, we who live in Italy have opinions that differ from people living outside of Italy and we are entitled to have those opinions. If our comments prove you wrong, well, you will just have to live with it.
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Re: Help needed: Am I eligible for Italian citizenship (concerns the 1948 rule and the minor child of a marriage pre-198

Post by mler »

Except they don’t prove anyone wrong. Sig. Ruggiero agrees that Brody has a case and is willing to take it on. There is more than one lawyer in Italy.

And no, not every Italian who lives in Italy thinks as you do, and not every Italian living outside of Italy thinks as I do. One should avoid generalizing.

I really wonder sometimes why you are so eager to dissuade people from applying who are citizens according to Italian law. And remember, it’s the law that rules, not opinion.

Btw, the following was posted on a public forum, so I will share for those of you who may have a situation similar to Brody’s:

From Sig. Ruggiero’s office:

“your considerations are mostly correct and substantially I agree.

I have had similar successful cases and maybe the only risk is on the fact cases like this are not so frequent and so we can be assigned to a Judge that deals with it for the first time.

This is true for your stepfather's case and all the more reasons for yours since cases like this are even less.”
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Re: Help needed: Am I eligible for Italian citizenship (concerns the 1948 rule and the minor child of a marriage pre-198

Post by jennabet »

jennabet wrote: 27 Sep 2018, 12:38
jennabet wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 11:59 When you were born in 1975, your mother, who acquired Italian citizenship through marriage and NOT through blood, was not an Italian citizen so you cannot be included in this type of case. Only the children your mother gave birth to after she became Italian are qualified. This is because in effect when your mother married an Italian citizen in 1979, she became automatically naturalized. If your mother had acquired Italian citizenship by blood, for example from her own Italian parents, then you would also be qualified. Or if your real biological father was Italian you might also have a case through him. But as it is, no, you cannot be recognized along with your half siblings for Italian citizenship.
Quoting Luigi Piano, "To get Italian citizenship through marriage does not allow to transmit the Italian Citizenship to own children. Sorry you do not qualify through your mother".

So I was right again! No surprise here. Your mother was NOT Italian when you were born so unlike your half siblings who's mother WAS Italian when they were born, you do not qualify through your mother.
Brody, I am also aware that in addition to you not being eligible to receive Italian citizenship through your mother, an Italian attorney also told you that since your mother, who was married before 1983 was not legally recognized during the marriage and that her Italian spouse passed away in 2014, she is ALSO not eligible to be recognized as an Italian citizen. Please do not believe that this attorney did not read your inquiry correctly. Italian lawyers read very well and this one did NOT miss the fact that the marriage took place before 1983.

I have a personal friend with this exact situation, except that she had no children of her own when she married an Italian before 1983. They were divorced, she has two children (both Italian citizens) and grand-children who live in Italy, she visits them twice a year but she has never been recognized as an Italian citizen because she was not recognized during the marriage and the divorce ended the marriage. My friend has been visiting me every year since 2001. She has inquired of the consulate in New York City and she has inquired several times in Italy when she's here. Nothing about her case has ever changed and no exceptions have ever been made for her due to the fact that she has children and grand-children who have always lived in Italy. You are either an Italian citizen or you are not.

I would advise you to ask for proof from the people who are telling you otherwise. Tell them to tell you where you should go to research authentic responses from others who have been given this same advice and have then come back and confirmed that it was correct. If no one has done this, ask them WHY NOT.
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Re: Help needed: Am I eligible for Italian citizenship (concerns the 1948 rule and the minor child of a marriage pre-198

Post by mler »

As usual, personal experience rather than quoting the law. Why am I not surprised.

This is not from me; it’s from Att. Di Ruggiero:

“I have had similar successful cases and maybe the only risk is on the fact cases like this are not so frequent and so we can be assigned to a Judge that deals with it for the first time.”

Do you think there is only one attorney in Italy? Or maybe you think he’s lying when he says he has had similar successful cases. And, btw, this is the second lawyer who responded positively to brody’s case.

And now you’re saying that brody’s mother, who acquired citizenship automatically when she married her then Italian husband before 1983, is not an Italian citizen. Incredible!!!

Just to clarify, according to the law pre-1983 (when brody’s parents were married), the female spouse of an Italian citizen automatically obtained Italian citizenship. His mother neither naturalized nor renounced and, therefore, still holds citizenship. If she wishes to have her citizenship recognized, however, she would have to join the 1948 case Brody has now started, to prove her husband was indeed a citizen when they married.

Read the law.
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Re: Help needed: Am I eligible for Italian citizenship (concerns the 1948 rule and the minor child of a marriage pre-198

Post by jennabet »

jennabet wrote: 29 Sep 2018, 15:46
jennabet wrote: 27 Sep 2018, 12:38
jennabet wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 11:59
Brody, I am also aware that in addition to you not being eligible to receive Italian citizenship through your mother, an Italian attorney also told you that since your mother, who was married before 1983 was not legally recognized during the marriage and that her Italian spouse passed away in 2014, she is ALSO not eligible to be recognized as an Italian citizen. Please do not believe that this attorney did not read your inquiry correctly. Italian lawyers read very well and this one did NOT miss the fact that the marriage took place before 1983.

I would advise you to ask for proof from the people who are telling you otherwise. Tell them to tell you where you should go to research authentic responses from others who have been given this same advice and have then come back and confirmed that it was correct. If no one has done this, ask them WHY NOT.
Picking this up again for Brody, who as yet has not returned with an update, which I'm sure the forum would like to be advised of.

My companion has been an Italian citizen from birth. When he was recognized at a consulate in the USA in 2011, he submitted the marriage certificate (translated and apostilled) between himself and his deceased wife (year of death 2008) whom he married in 1970. The consulate asked for a simple photo copy only, not translated and not apostilled, of her birth certificate. If it is true that his deceased wife was an automatic but unrecognized Italian citizen from the time of her marriage and that her death did not sever her right to such citizenship, why did the consulate not ask for a certified, translated and apostilled copy of her birth certificate to be filed at the commune along with the documents of her living Italian citizenship spouse? Instead, we know for a fact that the commune has no such deceased "Italian citizen" registered there, when in fact many other Italian citizens registered in the commune are deceased.

Therefore, I think I have more than proved the point that your mother cannot be recognized as an Italian citizen. Her right to such recognition ended when her Italian spouse became deceased.
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