Full translation of my (abandoned) great grandfathers birth record please

[lyn1982]

After a decade at a brick wall unable to find my great grandfathers manifest, darkerhorse managed to find it.

It showed his name was actually Giuseppe Eppes. I guess my great grandfather changed it to Ebbo and later Abbo either by accident or whatnot. The info on the manifest, arrival in Lyons, NY June 1913, and birth in Alatri, leaving behind father Domenico all match for being my ggf. Only surname is a bit off.

Having the proper surname I was able to look in Frosinone military records. And find him listed. It stated he was born in Rome. My ggf always said Alatri for his birth but the military record says Rome (and whoever wrote his obit also stated he was born in Rome).

The fact manifest mentions a cousin and father is odd since military records say his parents were unknown, but the Domenico and Maria Pavia/Paria that my ggf mentions as his parents in all his documents actually appear to be the parents of the cousin he is going to on the manifest. I found records, cousins parents are Domenico Mastracci and Maria Pavia. Domenico died before 1892 according to another sons death cert so he cannot have sired my ggf.

I found my ggf's birth record here bottom left: http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0

I would like a full translation if possible. As he seems to have been abandoned at birth I will need as much info as possible.

[lyn1982]

I reposted this in the translation forum and would like to delete it here but I see no way to do so.

Wish this forum would allow you to edit and delete posts.

[rlw254]

Pietro Vespasiani presented an infant born 6 Dec 1895 at the hospital at Via Laterano at 4:50 pm to unknown parents and it was given the name Giuseppe Eppes. The child was sent to the orphanage of Rome's director with a copy of the birth record. Witnesses Giuseppe Barabini, 28, and Giovanni Spadoni, 28.

It is possible that he was adopted from the orphanage by your Mastracci family and thus grew up in Alatri. Don't hold on to 'cousin' too closely, that is used commonly in ship manifests when the relationship between two people isn't clear.

[lyn1982]

Thank you for translation.

Is that everything it says? No address for orphanage? Or info on the person who presented him or the witnesses? I've heard in some cases they can be related. Also curious/confused why there seem to be multiple dates in it. (I see 1894 and dec 21 also written).

Regarding the Mastracci's, I think they either adopted him or are his aunt and uncle. My ggf gives his parents as Domenico Ebbo and Mary/Maria Paris/Pretrain. This "cousin" has parents Domenico Mastracci and Maria Pavia. Very simular. But if he was taken out of orphanage by blood family I'd expect them to have changed his surname from Eppes so very confusing.

I also noticed that my ggf had daughters Mary, Virginia, Rose, Louise, and son Domenico. Phillip the cousin on the manifest has children with those same exact names. So their must be some sort of connection even if not blood related.

[bbivona]

Thank you for translation.

Is that everything it says? No address for orphanage? Or info on the person who presented him or the witnesses? I've heard in some cases they can be related. Also curious/confused why there seem to be multiple dates in it. (I see 1894 and dec 21 also written).

Regarding the Mastracci's, I think they either adopted him or are his aunt and uncle. My ggf gives his parents as Domenico Ebbo and Mary/Maria Paris/Pretrain. This "cousin" has parents Domenico Mastracci and Maria Pavia. Very simular. But if he was taken out of orphanage by blood family I'd expect them to have changed his surname from Eppes so very confusing.

I also noticed that my ggf had daughters Mary, Virginia, Rose, Louise, and son Domenico. Phillip the cousin on the manifest has children with those same exact names. So their must be some sort of connection even if not blood related.

No address for the orphanage, other than "Rome." The person presenting him was a 44 year old clerk living in Rome. No other info on him. For what it is worth, he presented the previous child on that page too. The witnesses are both 28 year old clerks, residents of Rome, and were the witnesses for all the records on these two pages. It's rare for the witnesses to be related on a birth act. Regarding December 21, 1894, the local government functionary recording the act states that he is the section chief and was delegated that authority by the mayor on that date.

[lyn1982]

Thanks for the additonal info. I guess the clerk and witnesses aren't related then, that's unfortunate.

Not sure what to do next. Does anyone know if there was only one orphanage in Rome at that time? I'm guessing I should contact them next. Would they likely have a record of if somebody took him out and if the person who did was related in anyway?

Also, all my DNA matches indicate my Giuseppe Eppes likely had grandparents born in Agrigento, Sicily. I even narrowed it down to a specific couple, and my lines are all further back then when this couple was even born and I have matches far back to all my lines, save for one line on my mothers line, but several on that line have tested and don't match these Agrigento matches (and none of the children of this couple were in US at the time this ancestor of my mothers was born). I also have no DNA connections to Rome or Roma or Frosinone area.

What is the likelihood that that a pregnant woman from Agrigento would be sent to Rome to maybe hide her "shame" and give birth? To boot the Agrigento families I DNA match to seemed pretty poor, would they have had to pay for her stay in Rome, or were their organizations who may have done that? I do note birth was in a hospital and not a maturtinty home, not sure what to make of that.

It seems so unlikely but my DNA matches do indicate he had to have at least one set of grandparents born in Agrigento, and I have less strong DNA connections to another couple in Agrigento as well so I'm thinking both his parents were born there. I don't suppose these hospitals kept any sort of records that I could view anywhere? If I could find a woman from Agrigento was in Rome hospital at that time it would help prove my ggfs parentage.

[darkerhorse]

Would the Nati, Allegati contain any useful documents such as a Certificate of Abandonment?

[rlw254]

This was a good find, though it may not be as helpful as you'd hoped. I still maintain that at least one of his parents or a set of grandparents was Sicilian from the DNA matching you've done. I've relayed to you my own story in which my Sicilian relative was up in Salerno working where he married a local girl and lived there until he died. I don't think this was very uncommon in the larger (especially port) cities.

[lyn1982]

Would the Nati, Allegati contain any useful documents such as a Certificate of Abandonment?

There isn't nati allegati records for Rome tho is there? Would be great if there was. Whta info would the cert of abandonment have and would one exist somewhere for my ggf? I saw example on Wikipedia but it was in Italian so I couldn't tell what info it had.

[darkerhorse]

Nati Allegati are there for 1895 but I don't know if it includes the record you're interested in.

[lyn1982]

This was a good find, though it may not be as helpful as you'd hoped. I still maintain that at least one of his parents or a set of grandparents was Sicilian from the DNA matching you've done. I've relayed to you my own story in which my Sicilian relative was up in Salerno working where he married a local girl and lived there until he died. I don't think this was very uncommon in the larger (especially port) cities.

I def agree on the sicillian grandparents and maybe parent/parents. But, shouldn't there be at least one parent from Rome? My DNA shows no connections to Rome/Roma or nearby Frosinone.

My only other unknown cluster from Italy seems to be maybe from Palombo, Teramo, Abruzzo, Italy, which is I think 2-3 hours from Rome, but I'm not 100% sure that is how I connect to them. This cluster is matches with a man from Palermo and his wife born in Palombo, Teramo, Abruzzo, Italy. My connection might be thro her as I did his tree back a bit and found no additional DNA matches but I can't be sure. She was born in 1891 and I can't do her tree back because her parents also are unknown. The irony.

What is more likely? That 2 people one from Agrigento, the other from Palombo, Teramo, Abruzzo, Italy met in Rome and this resulted in birth of my ggf, or that a woman from Agrigento was sent to Rome to give birth to my ggf? Would a single woman have really been allowed to leave her family to live in Rome in that time? Would a woman from Agrigento really have been sent all the way to Rome to give birth? There doesn't seem to be any other possibilities according to my DNA and both of these seem far fetched.

[lyn1982]

Nati Allegati are there for 1895 but I don't know if it includes the record you're interested in.

Thanks. Good to know. What are they listed under here tho? http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... iano/Roma/

edit: nm! I see them. I was looking at the translated version which shows them as born, attached.

[darkerhorse]

Looks like Series D is missing which might be the want you want. These allegati records aren't easy to navigate with no indexes.

[lyn1982]

Looks like Series D is missing which might be the want you want. These allegati records aren't easy to navigate with no indexes.

Thanks for looking. No indexes at the end even? Wonder how anybody can find any nati allegati records there if so.

[darkerhorse]

As far as I know none of the allegati have indexes but you can ask the forum. I just page through looking for the name in question. It's tedious. With marriage documents I've noticed consistent numbering between marriage records and allegati. I don't know if birth allegati are chronological or not.