Hello All,
I would be glad if you can help me with the following:
My great-grandparents firstly immigrated to Brazil in 1900 and my grandmother Carmina Magrini was born in Brazil in 1901, then the family returned to Italy and her father registered Carmina's birth in Salara, Rovigo, in 1910, here is her birth register translated from Portuguese to Italian by the Italian consular agency in Brazil:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... -TJH&i=925
Carmina's family definitively immigrated back to Brazil in 1911.
Was Carmina Magrini an Italian citizen?
What about my mother, who was born in Brazil in 1924? Was she an Italian citizen by jus sanguinis?
Thanks!
Was my grandmother an Italian citizen?
Re: Was my grandmother an Italian citizen?
Carmina was Italian as daughter of Italian parents.
Then if she was married with an Italian your mother was also Italian. Otherwise she had the citizenship of her father (but see later).
Then you didn't wrote:
- the citizenship of your father and
- your date of birth (before 1948 or not).
If your mother was Italian,
you are Italian if:
1. Your ancestors did not asked voluntary the Brazilian or other citizenship, renouncing in this way to the Italian citizenship.
AND
2. a) your mother was not married and you are born after 1947.
OR
b) your mother was married with an Italian.
If your mother was married with a Brazilian (or other foreigner) before 1948 she automatically lost Italian citizenship, according to the law of that time; but the Italian Supreme Court decided that citizenship may be given back by a Court decision (unless the person declared to renounce to the Italian citizenship as said before).
In the other cases the recognition of citizenship is asked through a Consulate or a Comune in Italy.
Then if she was married with an Italian your mother was also Italian. Otherwise she had the citizenship of her father (but see later).
Then you didn't wrote:
- the citizenship of your father and
- your date of birth (before 1948 or not).
If your mother was Italian,
you are Italian if:
1. Your ancestors did not asked voluntary the Brazilian or other citizenship, renouncing in this way to the Italian citizenship.
AND
2. a) your mother was not married and you are born after 1947.
OR
b) your mother was married with an Italian.
If your mother was married with a Brazilian (or other foreigner) before 1948 she automatically lost Italian citizenship, according to the law of that time; but the Italian Supreme Court decided that citizenship may be given back by a Court decision (unless the person declared to renounce to the Italian citizenship as said before).
In the other cases the recognition of citizenship is asked through a Consulate or a Comune in Italy.
Re: Was my grandmother an Italian citizen?
Thank you very much for your detailed explanation, Cedrone.
My mother married my father in 1943, he was Brazilian from Portuguese ancestors, and I was born after 1948.
My grandmother Carmina married Angelo Spoladori in 1920, he was born in Brazil from Italian parents.
My Italian great-grandparents have never asked for the Brazilian or any other citizenship.
So, although Carmina and my mother were both Italians, my Italian lineage from hers was broken because my mother married with a Brazilian before 1948, therefore Carmina cannot be considered my dante causa.
However, I understand that my Italian lineage was not broken from my Italian great-grandfather, my grandfather Angelo, my mother to me.
So, my dante causa is my Italian great-grandfather, and I can apply for Italian citizenship.
Please correct me if otherwise.
Thanks.
My mother married my father in 1943, he was Brazilian from Portuguese ancestors, and I was born after 1948.
My grandmother Carmina married Angelo Spoladori in 1920, he was born in Brazil from Italian parents.
My Italian great-grandparents have never asked for the Brazilian or any other citizenship.
So, although Carmina and my mother were both Italians, my Italian lineage from hers was broken because my mother married with a Brazilian before 1948, therefore Carmina cannot be considered my dante causa.
However, I understand that my Italian lineage was not broken from my Italian great-grandfather, my grandfather Angelo, my mother to me.
So, my dante causa is my Italian great-grandfather, and I can apply for Italian citizenship.
Please correct me if otherwise.
Thanks.
Re: Was my grandmother an Italian citizen?
Yes it is better to consider the lineage from your other Italian great-grandfather, grandfather Angelo and your mother.
But your mother become Brazilian by marriage and lost Italian citizenship for the law of that time.
As I said, as this case has not been well defined by law, courts have decided in different ways.
You may ask citizenship through a court decision, for this you should contact a lawyer specialized in this matter.
You may ask an Italian consulate that I think will confirm that your mother lost Italian citizenship and you may not ask citizenship through the consulate.
I hope not to have written something wrong, if so someone else will be able to correct me.
But your mother become Brazilian by marriage and lost Italian citizenship for the law of that time.
As I said, as this case has not been well defined by law, courts have decided in different ways.
You may ask citizenship through a court decision, for this you should contact a lawyer specialized in this matter.
You may ask an Italian consulate that I think will confirm that your mother lost Italian citizenship and you may not ask citizenship through the consulate.
I hope not to have written something wrong, if so someone else will be able to correct me.
Re: Was my grandmother an Italian citizen?
Thank you Cedrone, I really appreciate your comments.
Re: Was my grandmother an Italian citizen?
Actually, no. Your mother did NOT lose her Italian citizenship through marriage to a Brazilian. (If she had lost citizenship, you couldn’t qualify despite the citizenship status of grandfather since generation skipping is not permitted). However, before 1948 women could not pass citizenship to their children, so your mom could not obtain citizenship from Carmina.
Fortunately, your grandfather, Angelo, was also an Italian citizen, and it is through him that your mother obtained citizenship. Since you were born after 1948, you obtained citizenship through your mom. This is a consulate case GGF - GF - M - YOU.
The reason you can’t start with Angelo is because he was born in Brazil. You will need to trace his lineage to his Italian-born father and demonstrate that his father never naturalized or naturalized after Angelo’s birth.
If you discover that this naturalization line doesn’t work, you still have a 1948 case through Carmina. The consulate will not recognize that your mom obtained Italian citizenship through her, but the courts will.
Fortunately, your grandfather, Angelo, was also an Italian citizen, and it is through him that your mother obtained citizenship. Since you were born after 1948, you obtained citizenship through your mom. This is a consulate case GGF - GF - M - YOU.
The reason you can’t start with Angelo is because he was born in Brazil. You will need to trace his lineage to his Italian-born father and demonstrate that his father never naturalized or naturalized after Angelo’s birth.
If you discover that this naturalization line doesn’t work, you still have a 1948 case through Carmina. The consulate will not recognize that your mom obtained Italian citizenship through her, but the courts will.
Re: Was my grandmother an Italian citizen?
mler wrote: 06 Sep 2021, 14:18 Actually, no. Your mother did NOT lose her Italian citizenship through marriage to a Brazilian.
Can you please explain why she didn't lose citizenship through marriage?
The poster was speaking of a marriage in 1943, during the Kingdom of Italy and the law of that time (L. 555 of 1912) stated that an Italian woman marrying a foreigner and receiving for this the citizenship of the husband, automatically lost Italian citizenship.
So it depends from the Brazilian law, if the marriage gave or not citizenship to the wife (I suppose yes).
Said this, the problem is another
(follows)
Re: Was my grandmother an Italian citizen?
If the lost Italian citizenship could be later given back and at which conditions, if only on request of the same woman or also of the descendant to re-establish the lineage and obtain citizenship, if this could be made in an administrative way or only through a court decision.
For all this there should be studied the following laws and court decisions in this matter.
For all this there should be studied the following laws and court decisions in this matter.
Re: Was my grandmother an Italian citizen?
Not exactly. Before 1948, a woman could hold Italian citizenship, but she could not pass citizenship to her children.
Thus, Santos’ mother could have obtained Italian citizenship from her father (who was born to Italian citizens) but not from her mother who although an Italian citizen, could not pass that citizenship to her daughter (Santos’s mom) because the birth occurred before 1948. In any case, Santos’ mom was born with Italian citizenship.
After 1912, Italy did not consider that a woman lost her citizenship through her husband, so Santos’ mom retained her citizenship even after marrying a Brazilian man. Because Santos was born after 1948, she was able to pass that citizenship to him. There is no need to request a reinstatement of citizenship because she was born with Italian citizenship jus soli and, of course, never naturalized (and thus never lost it).
Thus, Santos’ mother could have obtained Italian citizenship from her father (who was born to Italian citizens) but not from her mother who although an Italian citizen, could not pass that citizenship to her daughter (Santos’s mom) because the birth occurred before 1948. In any case, Santos’ mom was born with Italian citizenship.
After 1912, Italy did not consider that a woman lost her citizenship through her husband, so Santos’ mom retained her citizenship even after marrying a Brazilian man. Because Santos was born after 1948, she was able to pass that citizenship to him. There is no need to request a reinstatement of citizenship because she was born with Italian citizenship jus soli and, of course, never naturalized (and thus never lost it).
