US citizen/Italian citizen atti di matrimonio question

[MarcuccioV]

This has bothered me since I found these documents many months ago. Maybe someone has a viable explanation.

My maternal grandfather (Agostino Mattia, b. 1891 in Valmontone) emigrated to the US at the age of 18 in 1910. According to both a citizenship document (not attached) and his 1920 passport application (attached), he was naturalized as a US citizen (including renunciation of Italian citizenship) in 1918 in Battle Creek, MI.

I don't know for certain, but he likely met (or was "introduced") to my grandmother, Maria Attiani (b. 1902 in Valmontone) during that 1920 trip back to Italy. His grandmother was also an Attiani, so the families may have had an "arrangement".

He apparently returned again and married her in Jan of 1922. At that time, he was not only a US citizen for 4 years, but a US Army veteran (WWI) and had been an employee of the Ford Motor Company (machinist) in Detroit since 1913.

Yet on the marriage act on Antenati it shows him as a "resident" of Valmontone (making NO reference to his US citizenship) and indicates his social class as "contadino" (peasant farmer), which may have been the caste he was born into, he had certainly risen far above that working a specialized job at an automobile assembly plant.

So, what gives..? Did he (and his family) simply give false information..? Did the recording secretary simply ignore his status to facilitate the marriage..? Could bribery be involved..? Wouldn't SOMEONE in town know the truth..?

It just doesn't make much sense to me that on the document he is treated still as an Italian citizen, when clearly he was not. Thoughts..?

https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/co ... pId=983270

http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0

[cedrone]

You may see that the printed part of the text of the marriage act doesn't ask the indication of citizenship. For the marriage there was no difference if he was Italian or US citizen.
It is possible that he didn't declare his
naturalization to the official,
the renunciation to Italian citizen made in that occasion was important for the US, but I don't know if it was immediately communicated to the Italian authorities, I think not or a long time later.
If the person really wanted to renounce to Italian citizenship should have declared also to the Comune when came back to Italy, but probably he didn't.
And what he did then, came back to the US?

[MarcuccioV]

You may see that the printed part of the text of the marriage act doesn't ask the indication of citizenship. For the marriage there was no difference if he was Italian or US citizen.
It is possible that he didn't declare his
naturalization to the official,
the renunciation to Italian citizen made in that occasion was important for the US, but I don't know if it was immediately communicated to the Italian authorities, I think not or a long time later.
If the person really wanted to renounce to Italian citizenship should have declared also to the Comune when came back to Italy, but probably he didn't.
And what he did then, came back to the US?

Yes, he and Maria returned to the US, to where he lived at the time with his sister & brother-in-law in Detroit. They bought a home shortly thereafter, as my mother & uncle (twins) were born in April of 1923. I don't recall ever seeing any naturalization paperwork for her, but possibly that was accomplished through the marriage. She DID have a US Social Security #, although she never worked here in the US. I don't think he ever returned to Italy after that. Maria went back for short visits a few times.

[BobNY]

Since the marriage was performed prior to the enactment of the Cable Act which became effective on September 22, 1922, Maria acquired derivative US citizenship simultaneously with her marriage. For women in her situation, the only proof of citizenship was the combination of the husband's naturalization record and the couple's marriage document.

[MarcuccioV]

Since the marriage was performed prior to the enactment of the Cable Act which became effective on September 22, 1922, Maria acquired derivative US citizenship simultaneously with her marriage. For women in her situation, the only proof of citizenship was the combination of the husband's naturalization record and the couple's marriage document.

Thank you, Bob, for that clarification. Explains why there is no documentation on her.

Although I'm still perplexed as to my grandfather's status. I guess it didn't matter...

[mler]

Indeed it didn’t matter. People naturalized, but unless there was a specific reason to do so, that information was not usually communicated to Italy.

My husband naturalized several years before our marriage, but about ten years later, he was contacted by the Italian consulate serving our jurisdiction and informed that he was wanted in Italy for draft evasion and that if he returned to Italy, he would be arrested. I don’t know how they located him, but he had to go to the consulate and present his naturalization papers, which got him off the “wanted” list. It, of course, officially ended his Italian citizenship as well.

[MarcuccioV]

Indeed it didn’t matter. People naturalized, but unless there was a specific reason to do so, that information was not usually communicated to Italy.

It wouldn't do me any good to argue that point.

It does, however, give me pause as to the accuracy of some of the info found on birth/death acts. Some of the death acts were only witnessed by the 'becchini' (who removed the body), so unless they knew the family, how did they know the parental info of the deceased..?

Some of the acts also were witnessed by neighbors (at least that is my assumption, as their surnames are not directly related to anyone in my tree).

Others have different/incorrect info (siblings showing differing mother's names, etc). These are almost ALWAYS the ones not witnessed by family members.

Makes tracing the lineages challenging, at best...

[mler]

That is absolutely true. The one thing that is very helpful in tracing ancestry is the fact that in Italy, women retained their birth surnames, and that’s a definite plus. I was able to trace one family line to the late 1600’s with that information.

But I’ve also found several inaccuracies, sometimes through missing information, sometimes through a clerical error. On one death record, the name of the husband was listed incorrectly (it was actually switched with the husband’s name on the next document in the sequence). It took me a while to figure out that one.

[MarcuccioV]

That is absolutely true. The one thing that is very helpful in tracing ancestry is the fact that in Italy, women retained their birth surnames, and that’s a definite plus. I was able to trace one family line to the late 1600’s with that information.

But I’ve also found several inaccuracies, sometimes through missing information, sometimes through a clerical error. On one death record, the name of the husband was listed incorrectly (it was actually switched with the husband’s name on the next document in the sequence). It took me a while to figure out that one.

Yes. One of the more glaring ones I found were two sisters (one being my grandmother's grandmother), whose mother's were listed as "Chiara Marsili" and "Eleonora Marsili". Other documentation (including some from a notarial register) confirmed the name "Chiara". I have no idea where 'Eleonora' came from, unless it was a middle name (rare in Italy). Unfortunately her birth, death & marriage acts are prior to available documentation...

[mler]

It’s interesting that you mention that. I had been going crazy trying to figure out why the name of my gf’s mother was listed on his birth, marriage and death records as “Eleanora” but on the family tree posted by Italian relatives, it was listed as “Cleonice.”

I was convinced that my grandfather was the product of a first marriage and other relatives were the product of a second marriage to a close relative. I finally managed to contact a second cousin in Italy whose mother was still living and she recalled that the name was actually “Cleonice (Amalia) Eleanora.” I’m still not totally convinced, but it’s the best I have for now. So totally frustrating, especially since I can’t seem to get further back on that line.

[MarcuccioV]

I was convinced that my grandfather was the product of a first marriage and other relatives were the product of a second marriage to a close relative. I finally managed to contact a second cousin in Italy whose mother was still living and she recalled that the name was actually “Cleonice (Amalia) Eleanora.” I’m still not totally convinced, but it’s the best I have for now. So totally frustrating, especially since I can’t seem to get further back on that line.

I forgot to mention that the sibling with the mother's name of 'Eleonora' was BETWEEN 2 who had the mother listed as 'Chiara'. So if it was not a middle name, then it was an obvious error...

[darkerhorse]

My great-grandfather immigrated from Sicily around 1900. After his wife died and after he became a naturalized citizen of the US he returned to Sicily in 1929 to marry his deceased wife's sister. The marital document lists him as a resident of Sicily with his Sicilian occupation. They soon immigrated to the US permanently. I don't believe he was back in Sicily for more than a few weeks or months. he also registered his first wife's death (she was not a US citizen) which occurred in the US, of course. The death record for her in Sicily references her death certificate from the US..

[MarcuccioV]

My great-grandfather immigrated from Sicily around 1900. After his wife died and after he became a naturalized citizen of the US he returned to Sicily in 1929 to marry his deceased wife's sister. The marital document lists him as a resident of Sicily with his Sicilian occupation. They soon immigrated to the US permanently. I don't believe he was back in Sicily for more than a few weeks or months. he also registered his first wife's death (she was not a US citizen) which occurred in the US, of course. The death record for her in Sicily references her death certificate from the US..

Sounds like a very similar situation. Considering the different provinces/locales, it was no doubt simply the typical modus operandi. Nice to know, though...

[mler]

My great-grandfather immigrated from Sicily around 1900. After his wife died and after he became a naturalized citizen of the US he returned to Sicily in 1929 to marry his deceased wife's sister. The marital document lists him as a resident of Sicily with his Sicilian occupation. They soon immigrated to the US permanently. I don't believe he was back in Sicily for more than a few weeks or months. he also registered his first wife's death (she was not a US citizen) which occurred in the US, of course. The death record for her in Sicily references her death certificate from the US..

That is what I suspected happened with my great grandfather (although he never left Italy). My grandfather and his brother were the two oldest siblings and the only ones to emigrate. It was their mother who was named Eleanora. It seems unusual that she would use her middle name on her sons’ certificates. The rest of the family (much younger) knew their great grandmother as Cleonice. I still strongly suspect that Eleanora and Cleonice were close relatives but two different women. Sadly, that family line is one I have had no luck in accessing.

[darkerhorse]

Looks like current residence was recorded and citizenship was ignored. My family lived in a small town in Sicily where local government officials might have known everybody and their statuses and histories. The fact that the groom had his first wife's death in the U.S. recorded in the local town office in Sicily suggests he wasn't trying to hide anything about his emigration to the U.S. Citizenship seems to be irrelevant.

As an aside, my great-grandfather's first wife had been married to my great-grandfather's older brother (who died) before she was married to my great-grandfather. So, my great-grandmother was married to my great-grandfather's brother before she married my great-grandfather, and my great-grand father was married to my great-grandmother's sister after he married my great-grandmother.