Help With Narrative

[darkerhorse]

This may be a bit complicated to follow. It has to do with identifying and describing relatives in a family narrative.

My paternal grandparents were paternal 3rd cousins to each other, sharing the same surname. The documentation is indisputable.

Before I discovered their blood relationship, I referred to my surname as my grandfather’s surname, and maintained that it was different from my grandmother’s surname (which was the family lore - we were told it was just a common name over there, like Smith is here).

Since they share a common surnamed ancestor, I wonder if you agree that I shouldn’t refer to it as my grandfather’s surname anymore, in the sense of it being distinct from my grandmother’s surname?

But they can be said to represent different sides of the same family, if not different surnames. They each had siblings, as well as paternal 1st, 2nd, and 3rd cousins, but no paternal cousins beyond that level (no 4th, 5th, etc.) since their common 2x paternal great-grandfather was an only child.

I’ve been thinking about referring to my grandfather, his siblings, and his 1st and 2nd paternal cousins as his side of the family, and to my grandmother, her siblings, and her 1st and 2nd paternal cousins as her side of the family.

So, instead of identifying paternal relatives by whether they have my grandfather’s surname, I’m focusing on whether they are on his side of the family, as defined above.

Or, can I identify relatives based on having my grandfather’s surname, and if yes, where do I draw the line? Does his side of the family as I’ve identified, carry his surname, and her side carry her surname? Isn't it the same surname? I was thinking I’ve discredited that distinction because of the common surnamed ancestor, four generations back.

A distinction without a difference?

Since my grandfather’s other paternal 3rd cousins and my grandmother’s other paternal 3rd cousins are held in common, it seems as though they don’t belong to either side of the family. I’ve been calling them “extended family” for want of a better term.

So, there’s my grandfather’s side, my grandmother’s side, and their extended family (3rd cousins) – instead of relatives with my grandfather’s surname versus relatives with my grandmother’s surname.

Comments, suggestions?

[JSpero1162]

I've had similar issues. My grandparents were second cousins and my great grandparents were 1st cousins. There are also other documented instances of cousins marrying cousins, and I'm sure there are more that are not documented. As a result, I have some cousins to whom I am related at least 6 different ways! Isn't endogamy great!

In my family, while they do not have the same surname, I have found a couple of things helpful depending on the circumstance or how the narrative is being written.

I try to use the two distinct branches of the family by identifying them is the descendants of one sibling and the descendants of the other sibling. In your case, 3rd cousins, their great grandparents would have been siblings (ie. John and Jane Smith). Maybe you could describe the families as the Smith Family descended from John Smith and the Smith Family descended from Jane Smith. While a bit cumbersome, I think it could keep things clear.

In addition, as part of the narrative, I try to describe what I call this complicating factor and lay out the ground rules for how I will identify each branch or family line. I generally do this in a paragraph or two at the beginning entitled Background, but it could also be done as a footnote.

Finally, I generally use a simplified chart to show how the two branches are related. Again, this could be included in the narrative or as part of the footnote. Personally, I find it easier to understand when seeing it in a chart.

Just some thoughts. I hope this helps.

[darkerhorse]

My surname line first branches out five generations back with five brothers ("heads of the five families", or clans, as I've designated them).

My grandfather is descended from the oldest brother, and my grandmother from one of the younger ones.

I've been referring to them as five "clans". So, instead of descended from John Smith, I say descended from the John Clan.

Anyway, I've identified seven generations back. Generation 1 has only one couple - the alpha couple - and Generation 2 has two sons, only one of which had children (namely. those five clan brothers). So, it's simple until things fan out at Generation 3.

I'm struggling with nomenclature. After tribes, clans, and families I ran out of categories. There's "band", "moiety", and "phratry" but I wouldn't know where they fit. Band seems to be a group of families so it might fit between clan and family, I suppose. I'd like to keep Generation 3 as "clans" because it's intuitive. I'd also like to keep Generation 5 as "families" (because it places 1st cousins into "families" headed by uncles of my grandparents).

I've tried the following but it's awkward, and I don't know how to name subsequent generations:

Generation 1 = Tribe
Generation 2 = Sub-Tribes
Generation 3 = Clans
Generation 4 = Sub-Clans
Generation 5 = Families
Generation 6 = Sub-Families

The advantage is that my grandfather's generation (6) is the primary immigrant generation, so he and his siblings are in the same family (5), and head their own subfamilies (6).

As mentioned, Generation 3 is where the magic happened, and I refer to everyone in relation to which brother (clan) they descend from. Brother 1's Clan for example, includes my grandfather, his siblings, and their 1st and 2nd cousins. Same-generation descendants from the four other Brother Clans are all 3rd cousins to my grandfather.

My father is at Generation 7, and I'm at Generation 8. I've run out of category names, and the sub- is bad enough without sub-sub.

Comments and suggestions appreciated.

[darkerhorse]

The category of "nation" has also been suggested.

Possible 5-category hierarchy:

Generation 1 = Nation
Generation 2 = Tribe
Generation 3 = Clan
Generation 4 = Band
Generation 5 = Family

If sub-categories are used the number doubles to 10.

Thoughts?

[darkerhorse]

Branch has also been suggested as a category or as a replacement for sub-.

So, for example, it could be:

Generation 1 = Nation
Generation 2 = Tribe
Generation 3 = Clan
Generation 4 = Band
Generation 5 = Family
Generation 6 = Branch

[darkerhorse]

In my case, I'm focusing on separating families at the third generation where there are eight siblings, five males and three women. For now, I call them "clans".

I've been proceeding with the five males as heads of five clans because they carry the surname.

However, I was wondering if I should identify all eight siblings (including both genders) as heads of clans even though the females don't carry the surname.

Or would you consider the females as not heading their own clans, and rather belonging to their husbands' clans?

[darkerhorse]

Let's say Giuseppe Romano has eight children: five males and three females. Are there only five Romano clans or are there eight?

[darkerhorse]

Anybody know of a better classification system than the ones above, perhaps one used by cultural anthropologists or genealogists?

[darkerhorse]

Let me try this.

Suppose Mauro Germano has two sons: Nicolo and Filippo.

Nicolo has a son Alfio who has a son Sebastiano who has a son Angelo. All have the surname, Germano.

Filippo has a daughter Annunciata who marries a man with the surname Russo and they have a son Giuseppe who has a son Vincenzo. Filippo and Annunciata also have the surname Germano, but Giuseppe and Vincenzo carry the surname Russo.

The scheme looks like this:

Gen 1 Nation Mauro Germano
Gen 2 Tribe Nicolo Germano Filippo Germano
Gen 3 Clan Alfio Germano Annunciata Germano
Gen 4 Band Sebastiano Germano Giuseppe Russo
Gen 5 Family Angelo Germano Vincenzo Russo

Clearly, the Angelo Germano Family is in the Sebastiano Germano Band of the Alfio Germano Clan of the Nicolo Germano Tribe of the Mauro Germano Nation.

But, what about the other son's line? I suppose you could say that Annunciata Germano and Filippo Germano are in the Mauro Germano Nation, but what about Giuseppe Russo and Vincenzo Russo? What clan, tribe, and nation are they in - Russo and/or Germano?

Basically, when is a Germano no longer a Germano?