Military Records when moving towns.

[deigo1]

I had a general question about military records / registration when a family moved towns. My great-grandfather was born (1882) in the province of Mantova, but we know the family re-located to Parma (not exactly sure when). I understand that in the province you were born the list de levia was created and sent in for everyone that would be 18. As I read it that list was created no matter if you lived there or not. I wrote to the archives of Mantova and they finally responded this week that he was indeed on the list de levia, but due to lack of staff the reproduction area was not available and they could not send me a copy, other than the list details no other information was provided.

It is the families understanding that he grew up as a young man in Parma, so he wasn't born there so I understand there wouldn't be a list de levia (?), which is I'm assuming why the archives of Parma didn't want to search. I also understand through reading this article https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/It ... ry_Records, that at the age of 21 there was another military step called the Liste d'Estrazione. I had read some other articles that when families moved towns, they had to register in them, so perhaps at age 21 he had to report in Parma?

Both communes have been responsive to other birth / death requests. Is there something I could ask for from the commune(s) that would confirm his presence at those age times to help convince the archives to search? Or something additional to ask the archives of Mantova?

There isn't much online for Parma that I've been able to find across the common sites. There are actually military records for Parma at the family search onsite in Utah, unfortunately I'm a long ways from there.

Thanks!
D

[cedrone]

I hope to remember correctly.
The lista di leva was the list of potential soldiers prepared by every Comune with the names of the men 18 yo resident there.
One year later soldiers were called to the 'visita di leva' and classified in 3 categories if able to service, sent to a new exam one year later (rivedibili) or dispensed for medical reasons (riformati).
If you received from Mantova that they found the lista di leva, the person was living there.
I don't understand if they gave the details in the list, there are only the name, date and place of birth, father's name. If they wrote this data to you or you had them already, it's not useful to ask a copy of the lista.
More interesting should be the 'ruolo matricolare' or 'foglio matricolare' written by the military authorities after the visita di leva with the decision and later, if the soldier was called to service there were added all details of service.
I'll look if these are available for Mantova.

[deigo1]

Thank you cedrone...if its helpful this is what I was told. The birth record was found and translated in a prior post, which wasn't part of my ask, but I did include those details to help them locate any military records.

si comunica che nella Banca dati, per le ricerche anagrafiche di quest’Archivio di Stato, risulta il nominativo
di Menossi Vittorio, figlio di Paolo e di Losi Prassede, nato il 22 settembre 1882 a Virgilio (ex Comune di
Quattroville e dal 2014 il Comune di Borgo Virgilio, in provincia di Mantova), presente nel registro di leva
n. 325/804 del Mandamento di Mantova; lo stesso è riportato nel registro degli “Atti di Nascita” del Comune
di Quattroville (poi Virgilio) per l’anno 1882, atto n. 104 (registro appartenente al fondo “Anagrafe e stato
civile, seconde copie” qui conservato, pubblicato anche on line nel Portale Antenati:

[cedrone]

I looked at the sites Antenati and the Archivio di Stato of Mantova.
It's said that they made a data bank with all the names present in the documents they have.
From this data bank they found the info in the mail you received, that is this person is in the lista di leva and also there is the birth act, published on Antenati
so I think you have found it there.
As said the lista di leva gives only the data you received in the mail, so it's not useful to ask a copy of the original paper.
You may ask the document from the Ruoli matricolari with the details of his military service, but these registers (of Mantova) are at the Archivio di Stato of Verona.
I'll add something later.

[cedrone]

Il sito dell'Archivio di Stato di Verona non dà particolare istruzioni per la richiesta dei documenti militari.
Quindi puoi chiedere di cercare nei Ruoli matricolari di Mantova  il documento relativo alla persona che ti interessa, fornisci tutti i dati che hai, dovrebbero trovarlo facilmente.
Spiega che sei un discendente e ti serve per lo studio della storia della  famiglia. Allega la copia di un documento d'identità.
Se non li hanno ancora digitalizzati, è possibile che venga chiesto un pagamento per la riproduzione (da fare in un modo che può non essere molto semplice).

as-vr@beniculturali.it

[suanj]

The database of Ruoli Matricolari and Rubriche militari are availables in Verona archive of state, also 1882 and nobody Menossi.
http://archiviodistatoverona.benicultur ... e-militari

http://archiviodistatoverona.benicultur ... 201882.pdf
The archive of Mantova some year ago put on line a great database abt the leverage of men born in Mantova province, but no available anymore, and it was very well explaned that the names were extracted and indexed from the documents in their possession just requesting the FOGLIO MATRICOLARE (full military sheet) in Matova archive of state.
So you can ask it here in italian language, https://www.archiviodistatomantova.beni ... ispondenza with alla details, your ID card copy, explaining that is for genealogical use, and that you wish to pay the service...
Many Archives adopt a PagoPA online payment system, which means I pay to the public administration, and it is a little complicated because it requires data that a person who is not Italian and does not live in Italy does not have. Therefore, you should specify that you can only pay by bank transfer.
suanj

[cedrone]

Excuse me, it's explained that the FOGLI MATRICOLARI of Mantova are at the Archivio di Stato of Verona, so they must be requested there.

The data bank of Verona seems include only the data of the persons born in the Province of Verona, not also those born in Mantova.

[suanj]

Here is well specified:
https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... i-mantova/

Draft lists/Liste di leva
The Archive keeps the draft lists (classes of those born between 1839-1846 and 1941), referring to young people called to the military visit, with Austrian and Italian military conscripts (1839-1866) and military conscripts (1853-1941).

Sheets and matricular roles/Fogli e Ruoli Matricolari
The matriculation roles document the actual services rendered by soldiers born in the province of Mantua and any events that have changed their position in the context of their military career.
In particular:

Verona military district. Roles and matriculation files, men born from 1914 to1937, with antecedents.
Brescia military district. Documentation and matriculation office. Officers belonging to the province of Mantua, born in 1870, 1896-1929, with gaps.

Online sources

Since 1992, the State Archives of Mantua have set up the database of Lists of draft, including over 180,000 names relating to the male population residing in the province of Mantua from 1847 to 1900. From September 2009, following an agreement signed with the Mantovani Association in the World, it was possible to consult online the data relating to the leverage of all seventy Mantuan Municipalities from 1860 to 1890. At the moment the database is no longer accessible due to termination of the agreement. At the institute it is also possible to consult the images of the matriculation roles of the Mantuan soldiers of the military classes 1838,1848,1851,1866-1899 and the related sections, documentation currently kept in the State Archives of Verona.
---------------------------------------------------
The difference between Ruolo Matricolare and Foglio Matricolare

The military districts are entrusted with the matriculation service, aimed at the official documentation of all the services rendered by each soldier to the State. The basic documents of the "matricola" (soldier) are:
the RUOLO MATRICOLARE and the FOGLIO MATRICOLARE, the first, is a document of office, the second is a individual document.

Hoping helpful
suanj

[cedrone]

(possiamo scrivere in italiano).
Appunto, presso l'archivio di Stato di Mantova si possono vedere le Immagini dei Fogli matricolari che sono a Verona, quindi le copie vanno chieste a Verona.
Potrebbero forse farle anche a Mantova,
ma la persona che ha scritto il post ha detto che da Mantova non inviano la copia nemmeno delle liste di leva.

[suanj]

Questo mi sembra strano chissà che ha capito, tutti gli archivi ottemperano alle richieste, se corrette, visto che hanno liste di leva e fogli e ruoli matricolari in formato digitale, possono stamparli tranquillamente. Boh, chi ci capisce è bravo..

[deigo1]

Thank you both for the help. To make sure I'm understanding (I can't read much Italian without using google translate).

Since Vittorio was found in the registry from the archives that would have meant that at the age of 18 he was still living in the province of Mantova?


To get any further military history I should send an email to as-vr@beniculturali.it with the pertinent information and request the FOGLIO MATRICOLARE?

For clarity, this was the last part of the response message from the archives at Mantova (as-mn@beniculturali.it): "Finally, it is emphasized that it is not possible to make any copy of the draft registers or anything else, considering the closure of the Photo Reproduction Section due to the lack of staff."

I did not offer to pay for anything so perhaps that is the issue, but I was only looking for a digital copy that I had got free from a different archives of my other great-grandfather.

I had somewhat two purposes here I was trying to obtain his military service records (assuming he has one) and gain clarity on when the family moved to Parma.

Thank you!
D.

[suanj]

The archive said that the copy's service don't work, no staff for this service... please to ask in Verona, maybe work.. please to specify:
genealogical use
digital format attached to email
to add a picture of your ID card
please to explain that you can pay just by bank transfer

[cedrone]

1. Excuse me, I wrote in Italian by mistake as I often do this with Spanish - speaking people, but probably your language is English.
2. Yes, if that person was in the lists of Mantova he was leaving there.
3. As from Mantova told you they don't send copies for lack of staff, it's not useful to ask again. At the Archive of Mantova they have the film or digitized copies of the documents, but the original are at VERONA, so you try to ask there, as I said in other post, explain that you need a FOGLIO MATRICOLARE from the collection of MANTOVA.

[cedrone]

I agree with what written by suany.
For the payment wait their request.
I saw one Archive asking no payment as their documents are online, another asking a small payment by bank transfer.

[deigo1]

Thank you both very much, I have sent the email. I will report back when I get details from the archives.

D.