Thank you, Erudita. I am not surprised his name was not in there. I had searched for his younger brother Louis (my husband's grandfather)'s record and could not find his either. However, I learned he had a church baptism record from St. Mary's Catholic in Plainfield, in a roundabout way.
Family Search had shown a link to a baptism record for an even younger brother Alphonse, but the date was before he was born. I noticed it was right after the birthdate I had for Louis so I suspected it was his. Unfortunately, for some reason I couldn't access the record through a personal Family Search account. I tracked it down with the help of wonderful librarian at the Plainfield Library who sent me the attached file.
Of course it is the one record with mistakes on it. The biggest being the note that was later written in that he had married Anna Quelly, when in fact she married brother Alphonse. I suppose that is why it is showing up online as Alphonse's record.
The librarian told me that many of the Catholic immigrants at that time didn't feel the need to register the births if they'd been recorded at the church.
I'm now researching the godparents listed on Louis' church record in case there is anything that back points back to a specific location in Italy.
Thank you again for all your help!
Guarino Italy 1888 Marriage Record
Re: Guarino Italy 1888 Marriage Record
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Re: Guarino Italy 1888 Marriage Record
Thanks for sharing the baptism record for Louis. Yes, either this family did not register the births, or the surname is just so badly spelled in those registers preventing us from finding them. It seems the more research one does on this family, the more issues are presenting themselves. Do you have the family on the 1905 NJ census? I believe I finally found them living at 1327 Lake Street but the surname on the record looks like Warring. The census is dated June 14, 1905. Donato and Mary both 31-year of birth 1874, daughter Mary, age 7, birth year 1898 in Italy, son James age 2 birth year 1901 in NJ. So again the issue of Mary and daughter being on a 1902 passenger list, if James’ age is correct, yet the census shows mother and daughter being in this country for three years and Donato for five, which would be consistent with him arriving in 1900 and Mary in 1902. And there is a man whose first name looks like Tom, born in 1880 in Italy, whose surname is probably a really bad spelling of Del Vecchio at the same address. if you need the link, I’ll send it to you later from my computer. On familysearch image 977 of 1227 if you search the NJ 1905 census there.
Also-on the baptism register-did you see the annotation all the way to the right about the NYC marriage to Marie D Henry Feb 23, 1944? You probably did, Laura, as I can tell you’re a very thorough researcher.
That’s all I can do for tonight. Sorry I still can’t give you a definitive answer about the 1902 passenger list.
Erudita
Also-on the baptism register-did you see the annotation all the way to the right about the NYC marriage to Marie D Henry Feb 23, 1944? You probably did, Laura, as I can tell you’re a very thorough researcher.
That’s all I can do for tonight. Sorry I still can’t give you a definitive answer about the 1902 passenger list.
Erudita
Re: Guarino Italy 1888 Marriage Record
link to the 1905 NJ census, in case you don't have it, under the name Donato Waring:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... 3AKMHL-8YK
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... 3AKMHL-8YK
Re: Guarino Italy 1888 Marriage Record
Laura,
link to indices for delayed births in NJ (births which were registered in years after the births took place)-index is for the years 1901-1929.
https://archive.org/details/njdelayedbi ... sort=title
Under the letter G, there is also a handwritten section after the alphabetized section in which the last names are handwritten and not alphabetized. There are, however, parents' names and record number numbers to order document copies, but no dates given of the actual date of the birth, or the date the delayed registration was made. I did a quick look through the G index, but didn't see anything that I thought would help you, but you might still find something, even if not under the letter G. I did though see that Vincent B Guarino whom I had previously mentioned, but that Donato and Mary were not his parents.
I also know that the state library in Trenton has microfilms containing city directories for Elisabeth NJ (referenced on Donato's passenger list) and also for Plainfield for the years not covered by the census records in which your ancestors are found. I just don't know if there would be any useful info in them for you, as I've never had reason to view any early 1900 directories for any city in NJ. I don't see these directories anywhere online.
Erudita
link to indices for delayed births in NJ (births which were registered in years after the births took place)-index is for the years 1901-1929.
https://archive.org/details/njdelayedbi ... sort=title
Under the letter G, there is also a handwritten section after the alphabetized section in which the last names are handwritten and not alphabetized. There are, however, parents' names and record number numbers to order document copies, but no dates given of the actual date of the birth, or the date the delayed registration was made. I did a quick look through the G index, but didn't see anything that I thought would help you, but you might still find something, even if not under the letter G. I did though see that Vincent B Guarino whom I had previously mentioned, but that Donato and Mary were not his parents.
I also know that the state library in Trenton has microfilms containing city directories for Elisabeth NJ (referenced on Donato's passenger list) and also for Plainfield for the years not covered by the census records in which your ancestors are found. I just don't know if there would be any useful info in them for you, as I've never had reason to view any early 1900 directories for any city in NJ. I don't see these directories anywhere online.
Erudita
Re: Guarino Italy 1888 Marriage Record
Erudita, I had not found the 1905 census and even if I had, I probably would not have recognized them. There's lots of valuable information there. I believe the other resident must have been Josephine's brother Antonio Del Vecchio. Thank you!
I'd found the Plainfield City directories but the earliest entry I saw was for 1905, then not again until 1911 but most of those years aren't in the directory. I will now go back and look under the name Waring (and variations for it) to see if I can find more. Most years list only the husband's name. Josephine wasn't included until 1928.
If you ever have use for it: https://www.digifind-it.com/plainfield/ ... tories.php
Yes, we are aware of Marie Henry who was Louis' second wife after the death of his first wife Margaretha/Marguerite/Margaret Rolande, who was my husband's grandmother. My husband never got to meet either of them as both they'd both died by the time my husband's father graduated high school. Thank you for bringing it to my attention though. I have missed many things that are right in front of me.
I'd searched the delayed birth index and could not find a Guarino who matched any family member. I also ordered a search from the City of Plainfield, but have not heard back yet. I will report back if I learn anything new.
I'm excited to take that information from the 1905 census to see if I can find any other leads from it.
Thank you again so much!
Laura
I'd found the Plainfield City directories but the earliest entry I saw was for 1905, then not again until 1911 but most of those years aren't in the directory. I will now go back and look under the name Waring (and variations for it) to see if I can find more. Most years list only the husband's name. Josephine wasn't included until 1928.
If you ever have use for it: https://www.digifind-it.com/plainfield/ ... tories.php
Yes, we are aware of Marie Henry who was Louis' second wife after the death of his first wife Margaretha/Marguerite/Margaret Rolande, who was my husband's grandmother. My husband never got to meet either of them as both they'd both died by the time my husband's father graduated high school. Thank you for bringing it to my attention though. I have missed many things that are right in front of me.
I'd searched the delayed birth index and could not find a Guarino who matched any family member. I also ordered a search from the City of Plainfield, but have not heard back yet. I will report back if I learn anything new.
I'm excited to take that information from the 1905 census to see if I can find any other leads from it.
Thank you again so much!
Laura
Re: Guarino Italy 1888 Marriage Record
The census seems to confirm that Donato and Antonio both traveled in 1900 and I'd previously found both names on the Victoria in December 1900. Those passenger records are what I'd used to narrow the area to Castelvenere before learning a cousin had once said Antonio came from Avellino.
However, after seeing a different birthdate for Donato of 1868 in other records, I began to think these were different passengers but I have not yet found anyone who looks like a better match.
However, after seeing a different birthdate for Donato of 1868 in other records, I began to think these were different passengers but I have not yet found anyone who looks like a better match.
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Re: Guarino Italy 1888 Marriage Record
Laura
I didn’t see Antonio on the manifest when I found Donato, as they are on different pages. Antonio’s destination is to his uncle Pietro Lucrezia at 848 Elizabeth Street in NY. The Donato I found was going to his brother in law Pietro di Lucrezia at 9 Elizabeth Street. Same Pietro? Probably but I’ll have to look further through the passenger list when I’m on my computer. Right now I’m in the middle of cleaning.
I didn’t see Antonio on the manifest when I found Donato, as they are on different pages. Antonio’s destination is to his uncle Pietro Lucrezia at 848 Elizabeth Street in NY. The Donato I found was going to his brother in law Pietro di Lucrezia at 9 Elizabeth Street. Same Pietro? Probably but I’ll have to look further through the passenger list when I’m on my computer. Right now I’m in the middle of cleaning.
Re: Guarino Italy 1888 Marriage Record
I should be cleaning too, Erudita.
Thank you for mentioning Antonio's destination to Pietro di Lucrezia. I had not gone back to the written manifest to look at the notes. I'd pulled those typed records long ago. It's hard to imagine it is not the same Pietro.
I'm following up with a bit more backup for the 1868 birthdate. Their headstone (like the death records) has birthdates of 1868. It also lists the spelling variation Guirino that was on his death record. Both of their obituaries are under the Americanized Gearino name so it's interesting that someone chose to engrave the headstone with this spelling. You'd think the other alternative would have been Guarino.
The 1868 vs.1874 birthdates continue to stump me. Are these variations, like the name variations, common? This type of research is new to me so maybe I am expecting more precision than I should.
Thank you,
Laura
Thank you for mentioning Antonio's destination to Pietro di Lucrezia. I had not gone back to the written manifest to look at the notes. I'd pulled those typed records long ago. It's hard to imagine it is not the same Pietro.
I'm following up with a bit more backup for the 1868 birthdate. Their headstone (like the death records) has birthdates of 1868. It also lists the spelling variation Guirino that was on his death record. Both of their obituaries are under the Americanized Gearino name so it's interesting that someone chose to engrave the headstone with this spelling. You'd think the other alternative would have been Guarino.
The 1868 vs.1874 birthdates continue to stump me. Are these variations, like the name variations, common? This type of research is new to me so maybe I am expecting more precision than I should.
Thank you,
Laura
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Re: Guarino Italy 1888 Marriage Record
Laura
Our younger son and two young grandchildren are coming over shortly, so I’ll try to study the links you posted later today. As to dates on cemetery tombstones, they are totally unreliable. I have one couple in my ancestry, for example, who were from a town in Sicily but lived in Brooklyn. They are both buried in a Catholic cemetery in Queens. Well, their year of birth on their tombstone is 1870. But, they married in their native town in 1873 and had their oldest child there in 1874. The accurate dates of birth are 1849 for the husband and 1856 for his wife.
I can give you many examples from researching the ancestries of both my husband and myself to demonstrate how many errors there are in U.S. records, particularly for those born in other countries. I’m sure other researchers can as well. Even taking what you believe to be James’ date of birth can be in error, despite the fact that he was born in NJ. I know that male ancestors born in NYC after WWI, for example, often had their birth dates changed by their parents. It was easy to do with home births. This was done in case there was another World War so that their male children wouldn’t readily be called up to serve. Also I know there were sometimes long delays in baptizing a child, even sometimes more than a year, so there could be errors in the church baptism records of the early 1900s with regard to the actual birth of a child. There are many errors in church records even in Sicily and Italy. Anyway, I have to run for now.
Erudita
Our younger son and two young grandchildren are coming over shortly, so I’ll try to study the links you posted later today. As to dates on cemetery tombstones, they are totally unreliable. I have one couple in my ancestry, for example, who were from a town in Sicily but lived in Brooklyn. They are both buried in a Catholic cemetery in Queens. Well, their year of birth on their tombstone is 1870. But, they married in their native town in 1873 and had their oldest child there in 1874. The accurate dates of birth are 1849 for the husband and 1856 for his wife.
I can give you many examples from researching the ancestries of both my husband and myself to demonstrate how many errors there are in U.S. records, particularly for those born in other countries. I’m sure other researchers can as well. Even taking what you believe to be James’ date of birth can be in error, despite the fact that he was born in NJ. I know that male ancestors born in NYC after WWI, for example, often had their birth dates changed by their parents. It was easy to do with home births. This was done in case there was another World War so that their male children wouldn’t readily be called up to serve. Also I know there were sometimes long delays in baptizing a child, even sometimes more than a year, so there could be errors in the church baptism records of the early 1900s with regard to the actual birth of a child. There are many errors in church records even in Sicily and Italy. Anyway, I have to run for now.
Erudita
Re: Guarino Italy 1888 Marriage Record
Erudita,
I hope you are enjoying your visit with your son and grandchildren. I just wanted to thank you for these stories about your ancestors' birth years. I am much less concerned about a 6-year difference after reading this. And it's fascinating to read about parents changing their male children's birth dates. Your explanation makes it understandable.
Good night,
Laura
I hope you are enjoying your visit with your son and grandchildren. I just wanted to thank you for these stories about your ancestors' birth years. I am much less concerned about a 6-year difference after reading this. And it's fascinating to read about parents changing their male children's birth dates. Your explanation makes it understandable.
Good night,
Laura
Re: Guarino Italy 1888 Marriage Record
Good morning, Laura-
We had a great time with the grandkids yesterday. They left before dinner time, so by then our DIL was finished working. She works from home. I was really exhausted last night. Fell asleep during the second tv show we watched after dinner, which was a season 1 finale.
I looked over the other records you posted. In the obits/newspaper death notices, or even on death records here and Italy, the info (such as ages at death), whether reported by family members or someone else, is not always accurate. And U.S. census records are noted for having many inaccuracies too.
Anyway, I need time to further study those military lists to see if I get any brainstorms before we determine how to next proceed with this research.
Also thank you for the link to the Plainfield directories.
That's all for now.
Erudita
We had a great time with the grandkids yesterday. They left before dinner time, so by then our DIL was finished working. She works from home. I was really exhausted last night. Fell asleep during the second tv show we watched after dinner, which was a season 1 finale.
I looked over the other records you posted. In the obits/newspaper death notices, or even on death records here and Italy, the info (such as ages at death), whether reported by family members or someone else, is not always accurate. And U.S. census records are noted for having many inaccuracies too.
Anyway, I need time to further study those military lists to see if I get any brainstorms before we determine how to next proceed with this research.
Also thank you for the link to the Plainfield directories.
That's all for now.
Erudita
Re: Guarino Italy 1888 Marriage Record
Laura
When you get a chance, look at this passenger list for a Giuseppe Guarino, age 17, traveling from Castelvenere to Plainfield NJ in 1911-his destination says to his uncle Donato Guarino but the address is given as 216 Richmond Street. His date of arrival was June 20, 1911 on the Duca Degli Abruzzi. The manifest is two pages, and he is on line 23. I can't decipher his mother's name which is also given on the manifest. I believe it says she was in Plainfiel. Can you read her name?
https://heritage.statueofliberty.org/pa ... 5nZXIiOw==
The manifest also gives his town of birth as Castelvenere, in addition to it being his last place of residence.
I looked at the birth records in Castelvenere in the time frame of 1893-1894, as suggested by his age of 17 in 1911 on the manifest, and then in years before and after. There are two Giuseppe Guarinos-both born to the same parents: Vincenzo Guarino and Maria Rosaria Flore. The first one was on Feb 12, 1894 (record #11). The father Vincenzo was age 25. The second one was born on March 28, 1897 (record #17) and the father Vincenzo was 28. So that puts Vincenzo's birth somewhere between 1865 and 1869, and there is a Vincenzo born in Correto Sannita to Giuseppe Guarino and Anna Maria del Vecchio in 1868, two years after the Donato Antonio born to them in 1866. Putting aside a possible connection to Correto Sannita, I couldn't help but wonder if this Vincenzo was a brother of your Donato.
Then I looked at the Plainfield Directory for 1911 (p. 132), but there is only one Donato Guarino listed there for that year, and that one is yours listed at 1338 Lake. I looked at the map as well, and Richmond Street doesn't cross Lake and isn't that close to it. Anyway, I am just wondering if the mother's name Flore on the birth records means anything to you, and also if you can decipher the name of the mother of the Giuseppe on the passenger list? The one on the passenger list has me stumped and it's not Maria Rosaria or just Rosaria Flore
That's all for now. Have to start dinner.
Erudita
When you get a chance, look at this passenger list for a Giuseppe Guarino, age 17, traveling from Castelvenere to Plainfield NJ in 1911-his destination says to his uncle Donato Guarino but the address is given as 216 Richmond Street. His date of arrival was June 20, 1911 on the Duca Degli Abruzzi. The manifest is two pages, and he is on line 23. I can't decipher his mother's name which is also given on the manifest. I believe it says she was in Plainfiel. Can you read her name?
https://heritage.statueofliberty.org/pa ... 5nZXIiOw==
The manifest also gives his town of birth as Castelvenere, in addition to it being his last place of residence.
I looked at the birth records in Castelvenere in the time frame of 1893-1894, as suggested by his age of 17 in 1911 on the manifest, and then in years before and after. There are two Giuseppe Guarinos-both born to the same parents: Vincenzo Guarino and Maria Rosaria Flore. The first one was on Feb 12, 1894 (record #11). The father Vincenzo was age 25. The second one was born on March 28, 1897 (record #17) and the father Vincenzo was 28. So that puts Vincenzo's birth somewhere between 1865 and 1869, and there is a Vincenzo born in Correto Sannita to Giuseppe Guarino and Anna Maria del Vecchio in 1868, two years after the Donato Antonio born to them in 1866. Putting aside a possible connection to Correto Sannita, I couldn't help but wonder if this Vincenzo was a brother of your Donato.
Then I looked at the Plainfield Directory for 1911 (p. 132), but there is only one Donato Guarino listed there for that year, and that one is yours listed at 1338 Lake. I looked at the map as well, and Richmond Street doesn't cross Lake and isn't that close to it. Anyway, I am just wondering if the mother's name Flore on the birth records means anything to you, and also if you can decipher the name of the mother of the Giuseppe on the passenger list? The one on the passenger list has me stumped and it's not Maria Rosaria or just Rosaria Flore
That's all for now. Have to start dinner.
Erudita
Re: Guarino Italy 1888 Marriage Record
Erudita,
You are one amazing sleuth. And your eagle eye is another superpower. It took me quiet a while to navigate to the column with the mother's info and now that I see it I'm also unsure of the writing. It looks a bit like Rosario Felaro, if I had to guess.
I'm also interested in the other passenger below him (Pascale Iannucci?) who came from Castelvenere and also looks like he's going to Uncle Donato Guerino in Plainfield. His mother's first name is Maria, but the last name is also nearly impossible to read. It looks a bit look Ristonia or Restania?
Thank you so much for pulling the Italian birth record information. The names Vincenzo Guarino and Maria Rosaria Flore are new to me, just like most of the others. I will add them to my search list to see if I can find any connections. I hope we do find out that Vincenzo is Donato's brother. It would be so helpful to have another link.
Thank you again as always.
Laura
You are one amazing sleuth. And your eagle eye is another superpower. It took me quiet a while to navigate to the column with the mother's info and now that I see it I'm also unsure of the writing. It looks a bit like Rosario Felaro, if I had to guess.
I'm also interested in the other passenger below him (Pascale Iannucci?) who came from Castelvenere and also looks like he's going to Uncle Donato Guerino in Plainfield. His mother's first name is Maria, but the last name is also nearly impossible to read. It looks a bit look Ristonia or Restania?
Thank you so much for pulling the Italian birth record information. The names Vincenzo Guarino and Maria Rosaria Flore are new to me, just like most of the others. I will add them to my search list to see if I can find any connections. I hope we do find out that Vincenzo is Donato's brother. It would be so helpful to have another link.
Thank you again as always.
Laura
Re: Guarino Italy 1888 Marriage Record
Good Morning, Laura-
About the Pascale Iannucci on the passenger list with Giuseppe Guarino-I found a birth record which gives his mother as Mariantonia (on the passenger list it reads Maria Antonia as two separate words), but her surname was Onofrio in the birth record. His father was Antonio Iannucci and Pascale was born in Castelvenere on July 13, 1892 in a house on Contrada Carella. (record # 35). Personally, the fact that it states on the passenger list that he was going to his uncle Donato Guarino might be meaningless, as I know that individuals who were emigrating to this country needed someone to vouch for them and often stated relationships (such as an uncle, a cousin, an aunt, etc) just for that purpose, even though the info wasn't technically true. So I think at this point it would be fruitless to investigate more info about Pascale.
On the other hand, I did find a birth record in 1902 in Castelvenere for a child born to a Liberantonio Guarino. If you recall, a Liberantonio Guarino was traveling with Maria del Vecchio and child Anna (who was actually Anna Maria but called Mary on some of the census records), We originally thought she had died, but I believe her first name varied on the census. She's definitely on the 1905 census. Anyway, on the 1902 arrival on June 14th, traveling with Maria del Vecchio and child Anna was a Liberantonio Guarino,age 25, going to his brother, Donato Guarino. On Dec 19, 1902 in Castelvenere a baby boy was born without life (stillborn) named Filippo (Guarino) to a Liberantonio Guarino and his wife Felicella Santillo. The midwife, and not the father Liberantonio, made the declaration of the birth, as the record states that he was in the Americas. So this may well be Donato's brother referred to in this birth record, but no age is given for him or his wife in the record.
I may be back again later.
Erudita
About the Pascale Iannucci on the passenger list with Giuseppe Guarino-I found a birth record which gives his mother as Mariantonia (on the passenger list it reads Maria Antonia as two separate words), but her surname was Onofrio in the birth record. His father was Antonio Iannucci and Pascale was born in Castelvenere on July 13, 1892 in a house on Contrada Carella. (record # 35). Personally, the fact that it states on the passenger list that he was going to his uncle Donato Guarino might be meaningless, as I know that individuals who were emigrating to this country needed someone to vouch for them and often stated relationships (such as an uncle, a cousin, an aunt, etc) just for that purpose, even though the info wasn't technically true. So I think at this point it would be fruitless to investigate more info about Pascale.
On the other hand, I did find a birth record in 1902 in Castelvenere for a child born to a Liberantonio Guarino. If you recall, a Liberantonio Guarino was traveling with Maria del Vecchio and child Anna (who was actually Anna Maria but called Mary on some of the census records), We originally thought she had died, but I believe her first name varied on the census. She's definitely on the 1905 census. Anyway, on the 1902 arrival on June 14th, traveling with Maria del Vecchio and child Anna was a Liberantonio Guarino,age 25, going to his brother, Donato Guarino. On Dec 19, 1902 in Castelvenere a baby boy was born without life (stillborn) named Filippo (Guarino) to a Liberantonio Guarino and his wife Felicella Santillo. The midwife, and not the father Liberantonio, made the declaration of the birth, as the record states that he was in the Americas. So this may well be Donato's brother referred to in this birth record, but no age is given for him or his wife in the record.
I may be back again later.
Erudita
Re: Guarino Italy 1888 Marriage Record
Erudita,
Thank you very much. I still have a hard time navigating the Italian records so I really appreciate your help. I agree that Liberantonio seems to be a brother of Donato. So many things line up. He is on my list of names to research deeper. I'm also taking your advice to not focus on Pascale Iannucci.
I just found the family in the 1915 New Jersey Census with yet a new variation of the name: Bernardo Grenna. Lines 39-48. I learned from you to focus on the address first and the rest of the family fits. Thank you.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... ction=view
The name for the other adult in the home, Tony Del Veccho is a much closer match to Josephine's brother Antonio Del Vecchio than the transcription of Tom Delvashin in the 1905 census. It's also interesting that he is now listed as married, but there's no wife at the residence.
The birthdate of oldest son James is listed as 1903 in this census. I want to believe that's the correct year so Josephine could have traveled over in 1902 and given birth to him in NJ the next year. On the other hand, younger brother Louis' date is reported as later than it is in the baptism records. I need to find the baptism record for James to get the birth date settled.
Good night,
Laura
Thank you very much. I still have a hard time navigating the Italian records so I really appreciate your help. I agree that Liberantonio seems to be a brother of Donato. So many things line up. He is on my list of names to research deeper. I'm also taking your advice to not focus on Pascale Iannucci.
I just found the family in the 1915 New Jersey Census with yet a new variation of the name: Bernardo Grenna. Lines 39-48. I learned from you to focus on the address first and the rest of the family fits. Thank you.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... ction=view
The name for the other adult in the home, Tony Del Veccho is a much closer match to Josephine's brother Antonio Del Vecchio than the transcription of Tom Delvashin in the 1905 census. It's also interesting that he is now listed as married, but there's no wife at the residence.
The birthdate of oldest son James is listed as 1903 in this census. I want to believe that's the correct year so Josephine could have traveled over in 1902 and given birth to him in NJ the next year. On the other hand, younger brother Louis' date is reported as later than it is in the baptism records. I need to find the baptism record for James to get the birth date settled.
Good night,
Laura
