Rome Hospital Birth? Where to look for a potentional mothers death record

[mmogno]

... I was reading something recently about the hospital and I understand that the hospital was divided into a male area and a woman’s area, but not only that, there was also a specific area which was given a name starting with “C” which means “hidden” which is where women who wanted to keep their pregnancy private were accommodated. Anyways, I’ll leave that with you. I’ve completely lost the link to what I was reading but if I find it I’ll post the info.
...
Angela

@AngelaGrace56
"Celate"
http://ricerca.archiviodistatoroma.beni ... 01-0002403

https://urloweb.com/cultura/le-meravigl ... ne-celate/

http://www.fedoabooks.unina.it/index.ph ... 102/83/527
L’Ospedale di S. Rocco a Roma per le partorienti “celate”.La maternità segregata
Pag 1923

[mmogno]

...
Oggetto: Richiesta di accesso completo ai documenti relativi a Giuseppe Eppes, nato il 6 dicembre 1895
Spett.le Direzione,
Sono il/la bisnipote di Giuseppe Eppes, nato a Roma il 6 dicembre 1895 e accolto presso il Brefotrofio Provinciale di Roma. Scrivo per richiedere l'accesso completo a tutta la documentazione relativa al mio bisnonno, incluse le informazioni normalmente secretate dalla legge.
...

The term “accesso completo” means the possibility to consult the archive documents in person.
Are you sure this is what you want? To go to Rome and visit the Archive?
Or would you prefer to receive copies of the documents by post?

[mmogno]

Birth certificate #856, Paris Zioli.
Via Ferruccio 21 is the address of the Asdrubali Maternity Hospital, another facility created specifically for mothers who wish to give birth and abandon their children while remaining anonymous.

[AngelaGrace56]

Thanks for the info. This is very disappointing! I mean I know I shouldn't hope she had died after giving birth but man it would make my life so much easier lol.

You are welcome for the info, and I can understand how disappointing it must be, especially when you have worked hard and gathered so much info over several years. What you could do, is take a break, have a recharge and then come back to it and review all the info you have and also do a fresh search on both Ancestry and Family Search, in case new information and records have been added since you first started your search. (Family Search are always adding new records.) I am not American and I have limited experience searching American records, but I did have a very quick search to see what was there pertaining to Giuseppe Ebbo. There were about four that came up but they had various birth dates and years. The birth years listed 1894, 1895, 1896.

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

I like AngelaGrace56's scenario.

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

... I was reading something recently about the hospital and I understand that the hospital was divided into a male area and a woman’s area, but not only that, there was also a specific area which was given a name starting with “C” which means “hidden” which is where women who wanted to keep their pregnancy private were accommodated. Anyways, I’ll leave that with you. I’ve completely lost the link to what I was reading but if I find it I’ll post the info.
...
Angela

@AngelaGrace56
"Celate"
http://ricerca.archiviodistatoroma.beni ... 01-0002403

https://urloweb.com/cultura/le-meravigl ... ne-celate/

http://www.fedoabooks.unina.it/index.ph ... 102/83/527
L’Ospedale di S. Rocco a Roma per le partorienti “celate”.La maternità segregata
Pag 1923

Celate!!! Yes that was the word. Thank you G, and thank you for the links too. They are great. I've just read through the second link you posted. So interesting and also somewhat eye opening. I'll read through the other document at the weekend as I have family coming to stay today.

“....The hidden were mainly women or nuns who, following secret relations with people from high classes, were forced to abandon their children. Once welcomed in the hospital, they were assigned hidden beds by curtains in a special ward and were marked by numbers, not by their real names, to guarantee their anonymity; with the same numbers they were buried in case of death. Only the doctor and the midwife were allowed to see them in the face; when they were born, the children of the hidden were immediately sent to the Pia Casa degli Esposti.

This hospital operated until 1892; later the building was torn down to make way for the current Piazza Augusto Imperatore and the so-called “celated” found new hospitality at the San Giovanni hospital. ”

The Church of San Rocco and the Hidden Women (The ancient hospital of Rome and the ‘secret mothers’ https://urloweb.com/cultura/le-meravigl ... ne-celate/


Angela

[darkerhorse]

Celate!!! Yes that was the word. Thank you G, and thank you for the links too. They are great. I've just read through the second link you posted. So interesting and also somewhat eye opening. I'll read through the other document at the weekend as I have family coming to stay today.

“....The hidden were mainly women or nuns who, following secret relations with people from high classes, were forced to abandon their children. Once welcomed in the hospital, they were assigned hidden beds by curtains in a special ward and were marked by numbers, not by their real names, to guarantee their anonymity; with the same numbers they were buried in case of death. Only the doctor and the midwife were allowed to see them in the face; when they were born, the children of the hidden were immediately sent to the Pia Casa degli Esposti.

This hospital operated until 1892; later the building was torn down to make way for the current Piazza Augusto Imperatore and the so-called “celated” found new hospitality at the San Giovanni hospital. ”

The Church of San Rocco and the Hidden Women (The ancient hospital of Rome and the ‘secret mothers’ https://urloweb.com/cultura/le-meravigl ... ne-celate/


Angela

I think the marriage record in the allegati post in the other topic recorded a doctor, notary, and clerk. So maybe they were higher class.

[lyn1982]

... I was reading something recently about the hospital and I understand that the hospital was divided into a male area and a woman’s area, but not only that, there was also a specific area which was given a name starting with “C” which means “hidden” which is where women who wanted to keep their pregnancy private were accommodated. Anyways, I’ll leave that with you. I’ve completely lost the link to what I was reading but if I find it I’ll post the info.
...
Angela

@AngelaGrace56
"Celate"
http://ricerca.archiviodistatoroma.beni ... 01-0002403

https://urloweb.com/cultura/le-meravigl ... ne-celate/

http://www.fedoabooks.unina.it/index.ph ... 102/83/527
L’Ospedale di S. Rocco a Roma per le partorienti “celate”.La maternità segregata
Pag 1923

Thank you for those - thats very interesting information. So she was likely one of those "hidden" woman then? Does this mean I should only be searching in families where the father had some occupation of importance, and if so what sort of occupations would qualify?

[lyn1982]

...
Oggetto: Richiesta di accesso completo ai documenti relativi a Giuseppe Eppes, nato il 6 dicembre 1895
Spett.le Direzione,
Sono il/la bisnipote di Giuseppe Eppes, nato a Roma il 6 dicembre 1895 e accolto presso il Brefotrofio Provinciale di Roma. Scrivo per richiedere l'accesso completo a tutta la documentazione relativa al mio bisnonno, incluse le informazioni normalmente secretate dalla legge.
...

The term “accesso completo” means the possibility to consult the archive documents in person.
Are you sure this is what you want? To go to Rome and visit the Archive?
Or would you prefer to receive copies of the documents by post?

Oh no! I'm going to kill that AI! I definitely don't wanna go in person. what do I change that to then?

[lyn1982]

Birth certificate #856, Paris Zioli.
Via Ferruccio 21 is the address of the Asdrubali Maternity Hospital, another facility created specifically for mothers who wish to give birth and abandon their children while remaining anonymous.

Thanks for the information - question - is there any reason why family would have chosen San GIovanni specfically - vs say the Asdrubali one - does it indicate as you said that the family the bio mother of Giuseppe came from had money - I don't know what sort of births the Asdrubali Maternity Hospital covered. I'm just wondering - logically why they chose San Giovanni over one of the other ones - what the differences between the 2 were if anyone knows. If Asdrubali Maternity Hospital was also for "hidden" woman than that might mean the family lived closer to San Giovanni, otherwise it can indicate perhaps that Asdrubali Maternity Hospital is for woman of lesser means?

[lyn1982]

Thanks for the info. This is very disappointing! I mean I know I shouldn't hope she had died after giving birth but man it would make my life so much easier lol.

You are welcome for the info, and I can understand how disappointing it must be, especially when you have worked hard and gathered so much info over several years. What you could do, is take a break, have a recharge and then come back to it and review all the info you have and also do a fresh search on both Ancestry and Family Search, in case new information and records have been added since you first started your search. (Family Search are always adding new records.) I am not American and I have limited experience searching American records, but I did have a very quick search to see what was there pertaining to Giuseppe Ebbo. There were about four that came up but they had various birth dates and years. The birth years listed 1894, 1895, 1896.

Angela

Thanks. I got 2 weeks left on ancestry subscription and then I am taking a break. But I don't see how I'll ever figure it out - even if closer matches come in. The TI side has a 98cm match, now deceased with parents born in the 1880s - I can't pinpoint where on I fit into that, when I put in her grandparents on thrulines there doesn't seem like theres enough matches for me to decend from them or high enough cm matches.

This Agrigento side in Rome - I can't pinpoint either there's like 5 matches parent/children/cousins all 40-50cm descended from a Martorana/Cumella couple but than I appear again to be lacking matches to determine what line - all I can say is it can't be that couple, it must be a sibling of the Martorana cause the only other 2 Cumella's I have are distant 12-14cm matches that appear to decend from another couple from Agrigento that I have a ton of DNA matches to. What I need is someone from Agrigento who has Martorana, Iacono, Fradella, and Falzone ancestry and the familes all intermarried a bunch but I can't find anyone the right age - frusteratingly the Cumella/Martorana couple where there is Falzone on Martorana line even has a Fradella godparent for 1 of their kids but I still can't find the link - too many years of birth and marriages are just missing in the records.

I'm not sure what Ebbo's you found but the name he was born with as a foundling with Eppes. I don't think his parents can be found in american records - though there are Martorana's and Falzones, etc in the same area even one next door - I cannot get these people traced back to find the connection - more than likely they are just common surnames.

[lyn1982]

... I was reading something recently about the hospital and I understand that the hospital was divided into a male area and a woman’s area, but not only that, there was also a specific area which was given a name starting with “C” which means “hidden” which is where women who wanted to keep their pregnancy private were accommodated. Anyways, I’ll leave that with you. I’ve completely lost the link to what I was reading but if I find it I’ll post the info.
...
Angela

@AngelaGrace56
"Celate"
http://ricerca.archiviodistatoroma.beni ... 01-0002403

https://urloweb.com/cultura/le-meravigl ... ne-celate/

http://www.fedoabooks.unina.it/index.ph ... 102/83/527
L’Ospedale di S. Rocco a Roma per le partorienti “celate”.La maternità segregata
Pag 1923

Celate!!! Yes that was the word. Thank you G, and thank you for the links too. They are great. I've just read through the second link you posted. So interesting and also somewhat eye opening. I'll read through the other document at the weekend as I have family coming to stay today.

“....The hidden were mainly women or nuns who, following secret relations with people from high classes, were forced to abandon their children. Once welcomed in the hospital, they were assigned hidden beds by curtains in a special ward and were marked by numbers, not by their real names, to guarantee their anonymity; with the same numbers they were buried in case of death. Only the doctor and the midwife were allowed to see them in the face; when they were born, the children of the hidden were immediately sent to the Pia Casa degli Esposti.

This hospital operated until 1892; later the building was torn down to make way for the current Piazza Augusto Imperatore and the so-called “celated” found new hospitality at the San Giovanni hospital. ”

The Church of San Rocco and the Hidden Women (The ancient hospital of Rome and the ‘secret mothers’ https://urloweb.com/cultura/le-meravigl ... ne-celate/


Angela

Thank you for additional info - is there anyway to find out what part of the hospital my ggf was born in? There must be something other than unknown parents to set his record apart from records like say the one in same hospital, directly above his where parents as listed. What I did note was there are a ton of babies with unknow parents in these records - some born at hospital, some not.

[lyn1982]

Celate!!! Yes that was the word. Thank you G, and thank you for the links too. They are great. I've just read through the second link you posted. So interesting and also somewhat eye opening. I'll read through the other document at the weekend as I have family coming to stay today.

“....The hidden were mainly women or nuns who, following secret relations with people from high classes, were forced to abandon their children. Once welcomed in the hospital, they were assigned hidden beds by curtains in a special ward and were marked by numbers, not by their real names, to guarantee their anonymity; with the same numbers they were buried in case of death. Only the doctor and the midwife were allowed to see them in the face; when they were born, the children of the hidden were immediately sent to the Pia Casa degli Esposti.

This hospital operated until 1892; later the building was torn down to make way for the current Piazza Augusto Imperatore and the so-called “celated” found new hospitality at the San Giovanni hospital. ”

The Church of San Rocco and the Hidden Women (The ancient hospital of Rome and the ‘secret mothers’ https://urloweb.com/cultura/le-meravigl ... ne-celate/


Angela

I think the marriage record in the allegati post in the other topic recorded a doctor, notary, and clerk. So maybe they were higher class.

Oh Wow! Do you know who was what? I don't think those are high class professions though - but I guess they're the kind of professions where reputation would matter more than say if you were a poor farmer or something.

[lyn1982]

Celate!!! Yes that was the word. Thank you G, and thank you for the links too. They are great. I've just read through the second link you posted. So interesting and also somewhat eye opening. I'll read through the other document at the weekend as I have family coming to stay today.

“....The hidden were mainly women or nuns who, following secret relations with people from high classes, were forced to abandon their children. Once welcomed in the hospital, they were assigned hidden beds by curtains in a special ward and were marked by numbers, not by their real names, to guarantee their anonymity; with the same numbers they were buried in case of death. Only the doctor and the midwife were allowed to see them in the face; when they were born, the children of the hidden were immediately sent to the Pia Casa degli Esposti.

This hospital operated until 1892; later the building was torn down to make way for the current Piazza Augusto Imperatore and the so-called “celated” found new hospitality at the San Giovanni hospital. ”

The Church of San Rocco and the Hidden Women (The ancient hospital of Rome and the ‘secret mothers’ https://urloweb.com/cultura/le-meravigl ... ne-celate/


Angela

I think the marriage record in the allegati post in the other topic recorded a doctor, notary, and clerk. So maybe they were higher class.

What a minute. A doctor? Is there a way to find out where he worked at? If its same hospital my ggf was born at - could mean he used connections to get a pregnant daughter or niece or cousin in.......

[darkerhorse]

Celate!!! Yes that was the word. Thank you G, and thank you for the links too. They are great. I've just read through the second link you posted. So interesting and also somewhat eye opening. I'll read through the other document at the weekend as I have family coming to stay today.

“....The hidden were mainly women or nuns who, following secret relations with people from high classes, were forced to abandon their children. Once welcomed in the hospital, they were assigned hidden beds by curtains in a special ward and were marked by numbers, not by their real names, to guarantee their anonymity; with the same numbers they were buried in case of death. Only the doctor and the midwife were allowed to see them in the face; when they were born, the children of the hidden were immediately sent to the Pia Casa degli Esposti.

This hospital operated until 1892; later the building was torn down to make way for the current Piazza Augusto Imperatore and the so-called “celated” found new hospitality at the San Giovanni hospital. ”

The Church of San Rocco and the Hidden Women (The ancient hospital of Rome and the ‘secret mothers’ https://urloweb.com/cultura/le-meravigl ... ne-celate/


Angela

I think the marriage record in the allegati post in the other topic recorded a doctor, notary, and clerk. So maybe they were higher class.

Oh Wow! Do you know who was what? I don't think those are high class professions though - but I guess they're the kind of professions where reputation would matter more than say if you were a poor farmer or something.

For what it's worth:
Occupations:
https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12 ... 94/wrZZekN

Antonino - doctor
Ferdinando - notary?
Antonia's father Giacomo - clerk/servant/employee