Not a "brick wall" but the "GREAT WALL of Chi

[Gina501]

I cannot find anything on my great-grandfather, Carmeloni Ignazio. Forget hitting a brick wall - this is the Great Wall of China!

I know that he was born around 1882. I always heard stories that he was from Piedmont, but on his marriage certificate it says he is from Pavia, which is in Lombardia. All I know is that he married Rosa Biani on April 12, 1908 in Manhattan, New York. I do not know when he was born or died, but on the 1930 census, Rosa was the head of the household so he was already dead. The problem is that Carmeloni Ignazio didn't know who his parents were. He was raised by the Della Valle family. I do not know when he came to America, New York, as I cannot find his passage. I cannot find his death record. Nothing...... Carmeloni Ignazio is a mystery.

It is very sad. I feel like I need to find him, to give his life meaning, and for his memory to carry on. No one remembers anything about him in my family. All his children (my grandfather and his siblings) are all gone...

I would be grateful for any help.

[Biff83]

Possible record on the New York City Death Index

Name--Camillo Ignazio, yob 1883-1884
Date of death--June 14, 1925

http://www.stevemorse.org/vital/nydeath ... iangen.org

[Gina501]

Possible record on the New York City Death Index

Name--Camillo Ignazio, yob 1883-1884
Date of death--June 14, 1925

http//www.stevemorse.org/vital/nydeath.php?Es ... iangen.org

Hey Biff, thanks. I have seen that record on that same site, but how do I know if that is him for sure?

[ricbru]

Hello,
there is a Carmeloni Ignazio arriving to Ellis Island on 1899, coming from Varzi, province of Pavia

http://ellisisland.org/search/shipManif ... 1500195024&

I think could be him.

You can write to Varzi vital record office and request his birth record or certificate

Comune
Ufficio di Stato Civile
Piazza Umberto I, 1
CAP 27057
Varzi (PV)
Italy

I hope it helps, bye Riccardo

[Gina501]

Hi Riccardo. I have seen that post on the Ellis Island site. What concerns me about that is that they have him listed as Ignazio Carmeloni. Not Carmeloni Ignazio. And the birth year doesn't match. So I cannot determine if this is his record or not. Also, his marriage record lists his birthplace as Pavia, not Varzi. Does this mean anything?

[ricbru]

It doesn't mean anything.
I think it could be him because at that time people use to declare different ages in different records.
Ignazio is a name and Carmeloni is a last name.
So I think you should try to send a request, written only in Italian, to that address asking for his birth record.
At least you know where and when he was born, the address of the house where he was born (there were not hospitals at that time), names,ages and jobs of parents.
I hope it helps
bye Riccardo

[Gina501]

Ok I will send a request. Do I go by the Ellis Island name and dates, or do I go by the New York City marriage license name and dates?

[ricbru]

Request his birth record or certificate asking if there is anyone with that name born between 1870 and 1885.
bye Riccardo

[Gina501]

Thanks for the advise.

[Essgee]

According to the 1920 census, Carmeloni arrived in 1904 and Rose in 1906. He was born about 1882. Hope this helps. Here is the 1920 census data:

[Gina501]

Yes, I have seen the census. But it poses a problem. According to Ellis Island, he arrived in 1899. I do not know what is right and what is wrong anymore. Very frustrating.

[nuccia]

Gina501..

Don't place to much importance on immigration dates or the names being inverted....this is common. Italians often gave their last name first...it is common.

As for the census immigration date being different..also common. He could have forgotten when he arrived, he could have lied just because he figured it was no one's business, the census taker could have just estimated a date for him...who knows. None of my family have the right immigration date on any of their records..but its still them. Look for other clues..address, profession, spouse, siblings...do they all match?

Send away for the birth act as Riccardo suggested...without the correct documentation you will be guessing forever.

Italians back then didn't place too much importance on ages and dates either...many couldn't even tell you their birthdays. I have records that show my great grandfather was born on about 5 different dates within a 3 or 4 year span...but they're all his records.

Don't get frustrated..this is supposed to be fun, right??? Smile, it will work itself out once you order the certificate.

[VaDeb]

Gina,

Ellis Island record is "right", just a matter of determining if that person is "yours".

You stated you had all the USA records for this family. What do they give for the year of immigration on the 1930, 1910 and 1900 (if you found one) census. Are the dates consistent? Memory fades as the years pass. Sometimes the date on the earliest census maybe the correct one.

Debbie

[Gina501]

Ok, so if they got his name wrong, and it is Ignazio Carmeloni instead of Carmeloni Ignazio, then 4 generations of Ignazio's would now be Carmeloni's. I'm not sure I want to know that information, and I don't think I'd be able to tell the rest of the family that either. Does this happen oftern?

[VaDeb]

Sorry, I was not clear in what I was saying.

I don't know if the spelling of the name on Ellis Island is correct. I meant that a person did enter on that date with that name. We don't know if it is "your" ancestor.

Italian surnames often changed as the immigrant entered American society. Some changes were intentional. Some were not. There could be an error in the way a name was entered onto the passenger record.

When I am looking for an unfamilar surname I will search for the exact spelling at the Ellis Island site. If I don't find any, suspect misspelling. You will usually find others with the same surname from the same town. This helps confirm the correct spelling.

You have to be prepared to find things you don't expect when doing genealgoy research. This should not upset you.

Ignoto means unknown in Italian.

Debbie