Visa application requirement...Anyone heard of this????

[drovedo]

I talked to consulate today and was told that I need to produce my grandfather's possible US visa application in order to apply for Italian citizenship or a letter stating that there is none. He wants to know how he became US citizen after WWI. (He was born here).

These are the docs I told him I have:

My grandfather's baptism record from Colorado (He was born in US, grew up in Italy)
My grandfather's registered Italian birth certificate
Record of Non existence of Naturalization from USCIS
Record of No Record of Naturalization from USCIS
My grandfather's Italian Military Draft record
Ship record of him coming back to US in 1922 after war (it lists his citizenship as Italian--I don't have his Italian passport)

Now the consulate official wants a possible US Visa application. Why? Possible renunciation of Italian citizenship???? What? I don't understand, as Italy was an ally of US in WWI and citizenship wasn't taken away because serving for Italy.

He also requests a certificate of Italian citizenship for my grandfather.

thanks.

[mler]

That is a rather strange request. What I am thinking is that he wants proof that your grandfather did not naturalize to become American (which he obviously did not do because he was born in the U.S.) I think he is confused by the fact that your grandfather returned to, and lived in Italy. The baptismal record does not prove he was born in the U.S., only that he was baptized here.

You might try this approach:

Since you have the Italian birth certificate, obtain a "no record" of naturalization from the U.S. That would establish your line without further question. (Italian citizen, never naturalized in the U.S., passes citizenship to child).

[drovedo]

Thank you for the response. I appreciate it.

I have both a Record of Non existence of Naturalization and a "no record' statement from USCIS for both my grandfather and great grandfather. I told the consulate this, and they told me that they needed further proof with a visa application.

[mler]

Drovedo, they seem to be making you "jump through hoops." You have everything (and more) that most consulates require. Where are you applying?

One other thing. Sometimes when you speak to a person at a consulate without your actual records, you get crazy responses. Why not try getting your documents together in sequence (beginning with your grandfather), and bring them in. I suggest beginning with your grandfather because you avoid the hassle of trying to convince them that he was born in the U.S., and it also gives you one fewer generation with which to deal.

This is what you would need for most consulates, and I expect yours as well:

Grandfather's Italian birth certificate
marriage certificate
death certificate, if applicable
proof of "no record"

Father's U.S. birth certificate
marriage certificate
death certificate, if applicable

Your birth certificate
marriage certificate, if applicable
children's birth certificates, if applicable

When you go in, don't mention your greatgrandfather. Your grandfather has an Italian birth certificate, so you can begin with him. Where he lived, married and died is not an issue. The only thing you are required to prove is that he was born and died as an Italian, and the Italian birth certificate and "no record" letter prove both.

Then your U.S. born parent inherits Italian citizenship from him and is automatically an American citizen by birth.

I honestly think you may have told the consulate a bit too much and complicated what should be a straightforward application. You've got everything. Go for it! And good luck.

[drovedo]

That would be Boston consulate, there is only one guy in citizenship office. I've spoken to him before. He doesn't seem to remember my speaking to him three months ago.

[mler]

Then you're probably good to go. There are several dual citizenship forums, and thus far, I've not read anything that would indicate that the Boston Consulate requires what they are asking you to produce.

Why not make an appointment, and go in with all your documentation? You have nothing to lose. If he does remember you, you can simply say that the information you provided earlier was incorrect, and that you are claiming citizenship through your Italian grandfather who never naturalized in this country.

One question, though--does his Italian birth certificate have anything on it that would indicate he was born in the U.S.? If not, there shouldn't be a problem.

[drovedo]

Yes the Italian birth cert does indicate that my grandfather was born in US.
The consular officer also wants me to produce a copy of my grandfather's cert of italian citizenship.

[mler]

Darn, messes things up at bit, but not much. It only means that you need to begin with your greatgrandfather.

greatgrandfather's Italian birth certificate
certificate of "no record"
marriage certificate
death certificate

grandfather's U.S birth certificate. Now you ignore the Italian one, which only complicates things.

You now do not produce a "no record" letter for your grandfather. As an American citizen, this would not be needed.
Grandfather's marriage and death certificates.

Everything else as before.

If you have your grandfather's U.S. birth certificate, you will have a standard jure sanguinis application. Again, I really think the Italian birth record and Italian military record is complicating things for you. Don't give the consulate people more than they need. It seems to be confusing the issue.

Again, good luck. It's clear you qualify. Just dig up that U.S. birth certificate.

[drovedo]

thank you. I may have to complicate things as I only have my grandfather's baptismal record. I contacted the clerks office of where he was born and they wrote me that they didn't require issuing birth certs for another ten years after my grandfather was born.

[mler]

You may be able to have them issue a delayed birth certificate if you have other documentation that proves when and where he was born. Some jurisdictions do this. It's worth a try. I hope it works for you.

[drovedo]

Well, I was just told that the state in question does not issue delayed birth certs for deceased relatives. So...I don't know if the consulate would just accept a US baptism record.

[mler]

Ok, let's go back to the original approach. I just had the thought that if his father registered his birth in Italy, it may not have mattered where he was born as far as Italy was concerned because Italy did not recognize dual citizenship. So, despite his place of birth, his father, an Italian citizen registered him as Italian.

I would go with that and use the first scenario starting with your grandfather.

Grandfather, an Italian citizen (with an Italian registered birth certificate) enters the U.S. in 1922 but never naturalizes (no record letter)

Then go down the line.

It seems you have everything else you need, so give it a try, and see what they say. They may not make an issue of his being born in the U.S., if you don't point it out to them. If they ask how this happened, you can say that your grandfather was born when his mother was in the states visiting relatives, but they never registered his birth here. Since they were Italian, they registered his birth only in Italy. When he emigrated to the U.S. as an Italian citizen, he never naturalized.

It just might work, and if you've exhausted all other possibilities, it's at least worth a try.