Proof of Citizenship

[SFC66]

After you originally mentioned it teddi I did a quick google images search for certificates of naturalization and it looked to me that it depended on the year the certificate was issued if spouses and children were listed on it or not. By the 1940s it seemed family info was no longer on it.

The following passages from pgs 10-11 from The Citizenship Flowchart by Robert J. McWhirter is what has made me pessimistic:

"Even if the child did not live in the United States, he obtained citizenship when the parent naturalized if the child was under age 21 and later lived (lawfully) in the United States (court cases notated)."

"the child is a United States citizen either when the child begins legal permanent residence and when the child's parent naturalize, whichever occurs last".

In 1930 only one parent had to naturalize to pass on citizenship. Of course no mention is made on what 'proved' the minor childs citizenship once arriving in the U.S to set up permanent residence.

[teddi]

Thanks mler and SFC66.

I know my husband's certificate has no place for a listing of children and spouse (not that he had any at the time ). My grandfather naturalized before my grandmother, and her name is not on the certificate either.

Yes this is the case with our ancestor's certificate from the 1940s as well. But I note the NARA Prologue article mentions as late as 1929, spouses continued to be listed on the husband's certificate (despite the 1922 Cable Act). On these earlier certificates, I was under the impression there's not a space on the form for the name(s)- the names were simply typed into a blank space. Perhaps SFC66 can say from the images he looked at.
Yes, you are correct- spouse and children are required to be listed on the Petition, whether or not they are minors, regardless of where they are born or whether they would receive citizenship through the naturalization.

In any event, I believe SFC66 has a good shot at successfully applying, given that GF arrived with a visa rather than US citizenship. Unless he formally sought recognition of his US citizenship (as noted in the NARA Prologue article), it may never have been recognized. If SFC66 can get No Record letters from USCIS, NARA and county court, coupled with the entry visa info from GF's USCIS Alien file, the death certificate may be no problem. Word of mouth from a bereaved relative wouldn't carry much weight with me in light of the official government records- don't know how the consulate might view it.

[mler]

I'm a bit less confident than you, teddi, although SFC66 certainly has a shot. The Death Certificate is less significant than other official records because the information on it is not self-reported and no attempt is made to ascertain the accuracy of the information.

I think it is clear, however, that SFC66's GF was indeed a U.S. citizen even though he arrived with a visa. As SFC66's research indicates, the child obtains citizenship if his father naturalizes, and he takes up legal residence in the U.S.; but citizenship begins with the act which occurs LAST. Thus, the GF would not have been a citizen when he left Italy--only after he arrived--and needed a visa to enter the country. For this reason, the visa carries little weight. In fact, it may be more of a minus than a plus because it will also indicate that the GF entered the country as a minor.

I suspect that the New York consulate is well aware of the possibilities in such situations, and a designation of U.S. citizen on the Death Certificate for an ancestor who entered the country as a minor and supposedly never naturalized may send up a red flag to an increasingly picky consulate.

If I were in SFC66's situation, I would most definitely go through the process, but I would certainly keep my fingers crossed while doing so. This is not a slam-dunk.

[teddi]

I think it is clear, however, that SFC66's GF was indeed a U.S. citizen even though he arrived with a visa.

But as your friend's case, and the NARA Prologue article (which I highly recommend) indicate, the US government often did not automatically recognize citizenship by derivative naturalization. Just as we must apply for recognition of jus sanguinis citizenship to have it recognized, many derivative naturalizations required significant effort on the part of the applicant to gain US government recognition.

We often hear folks say "I'm an Italian citizen based on my ancestry," but actually they are not until the Italian government recognizes it. Similarly many of these derivatively naturalized individuals are not recognized US citizens.

I would run the papers by the consulate, not bring up the possible derivative naturalization unless asked, and point out that it was never recognized (if the USCIS records search bears that out).

Nowhere did I say it was a slam-dunk case- what is anymore?

[mler]

Actually my friend did have derivative citizenship; what she didn't have is a naturalization certificate to prove it. Once they checked the records, they corrected the error, BUT her citizenship papers were pre-dated to reflect the fact that she had held citizenship since her parents naturalized. Too bad in her case because had they dated it when she petitioned them, she would have been a dual citizen.

What I am saying, though, is that the visa did not prove he was a citizen after he arrived. It only proved he was a citizen when he left Italy. Upon establishing residence in the U.S., he became a citizen through his father's naturalization. I think it's highly unlikely that the 16-year old son of a naturalized American, one who intended to remain in the U.S., would not naturalize--unless, of course, he naturalized with his father.

You're right. Nothing is a slam-dunk at the consulate, and I, too would advise the OP to give it a try. I'm not sure, though that presenting the visa helps his case. The consulate representatives in NY seem to be well versed in U.S. citizenship law, and the visa identifies the GF as a minor when he arrived. That, and the death certificate stating he was a U.S. citizen may prompt the consulate to ask him to go back another generation. That's something to be avoided.

I would suggest going only with the statement of "no records" and avoid the visa if possible.

[teddi]

Sounds reasonable to me mler. Would you object to him showing the ship manifest as well? He stated "The ship manifest shows U.S. citizen stamped next to the names of those who were citizens" but not by his GF. Would that be prejudicial to his case in the view of the NY consulate?

I apologize for misunderstanding your friend's situation. BTW have you had a chance to read the NARA Prologue article? Very informative, not just on this particular case but in general.

[mler]

No, I haven't read it, teddi, and I really would like to. Would it be possible for you to post the link? It seems like it would be very important to know.

Please don't apologize; I probably didn't explain it very well. I thought it was really funny, though. She was spinning wheels trying to prove she was an American citizen, and so many of us were doing the same thing trying to prove we are Italian. Your point makes sense, though. Here was a woman with derivative citizenship, and the U.S. didn't know it. She had to gather many papers to prove that both parents naturalized before they acknowledged it. That's why I so agree with you that he should go ahead with this.

The manifest, like the visa, shows the GF was Italian, but unlike the visa, it doesn't show his age (at least I don't think it does). My only objection to the visa was that I thought it might send a signal to the consulate to consider derivative citizenship.

When I applied in NY, I tried to submit as little as possible. I was using NARA documents in lieu of the naturalization certificate, and on the Petition, my father's name and his birthdate were incorrect. I simply pulled the Petition from the packet and submitted only the Oath and Declaration. Had they questioned me, I would have had to submit the Petition and then have had to answer questions about this discrepancy.

My inclination would be to submit only the "no record" letters from the federal, regional and county levels. If they ask for more, pull out first the manifest, then the visa. I'm thinking they may not ask for more. Fingers crossed.

[SFC66]

Teddi, from what I looked at, it looks like 1929 marks the year when family information was no longer included on the naturalization certificate. Up to then there was a specific section to list spouses and children.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't USCIS automatically look for an alien file in the general index search or is it something separate you have to request?

The ship manifest clearly shows my GFs age and immigration visa number.

You also both have been saying provide a 'no record' letter from the county. I spoke with the county clerk's office where I live and they point blank said they do not provide such letters. Also the NY Consulate Jure Sanguinis Information Kit mentions only getting a statement from the county if your ancestor attained a naturalization certificate. The NY Consulate specifically told me today they want Census Bureau information if USCIS & NARA have no records. Is there something I might be missing here?

Finally, and if derivative citizenship doesn't get me this issue probably will. I just learned NY Consulate wants a declaration that my father never renounced his Italian citizenship with a notarized signature from him.

Thanks guys for all your input, it has been extremely helpful!

[teddi]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't USCIS automatically look for an alien file in the general index search or is it something separate you have to request?

No, look at the USCIS website- they give you the option of which to search for- the A file or the C file.

Thanks for the info re 1929 certificates. The NARA Prologue article mentioned the date but I wasn't sure- I think you're right.

BTW, is that Citizenship Flowchart available online? I'd like to see the court cases the author referred to.

If NY consulate doesn't want the county court No record letter, that's all the better. Less to worry about.

I would try to ask your father if he would help you by signing the declaration of non-renunciation form. We had a similar situation where my wife's parents divorced when she was a toddler. She wrote to him out of the blue after 50 years. He at first wrote a very bitter letter back and refused to get a copy of his birth certificate for her. As it turned out, the paternal line didn't work anyway, as GF had naturalized before father's birth. And LA consulate did not require father's BC when using the maternal line. But father has continued writing now and then and has provided much genealogical information, even if it isn't germaine to citizenship recognition. Bottom line, it can't hurt to try, and who knows what will happen.

[teddi]

No, I haven't read it, teddi, and I really would like to. Would it be possible for you to post the link? It seems like it would be very important to know.

Here's the link: Women and Naturalization

[mler]

Thank you very much, teddi.

SFC66, I'd like to echo teddi's suggestion. Do try to contact your dad. You'll never know where it leads. All he can say is "no." Who knows; he may want to apply too.

If NY only wants census, NARA and USCIS, that's all you need give them, and that should work for you. Best of luck.

[SFC66]

Teddi its actually just a Google Book Search preview that posts a portion of a book. Just post the nice short link below in your address bar. Refer to page 11, #22, 'Childs Residence'.

http://books.google.com/books?id=OdZu2T ... =4#PPP1,M1

I think this book might hold a lot of interest to people on this website although if you can find it. I think it even comes with an actual flowchart one could throw on the wall so family can think your nuts with this stuff (like my wife).

Thanks both for the words of encouragement.

[teddi]

Thanks SFC66. That 's a very informative little book.