Dual Citizenship Questions and Assistance!

[taxi55]

Hi All - I am hopeful someone can assist...

I am currently a US citizen and I am looking into obtaining dual citizenship (Italy) and not sure if I qualify. I researched some info on the subject and because I do not have enough info on my ancestors - I can not determine if I am eligible. Any one able/willing to help?

My father and gfather (Nicholas) were born in the US, my ggfather Carlo Guariglia (abt 1866 - 1941) was born in Craco, Italy and immigrated to New York prior to Nicholas' birth. I can not find Carlo's immigration or naturalization info on line and can only find a 1900 census (guess my eyes are playing tricks on me. Any one able to find these?

Additional info:
Carlo was married to Rose (Benedetto) and had his first son Nicholas (my gfather) in 1894.

(Their other children were Rose, John, Charles, Margaret, Mary, Antoinette, Jeanette.)

They first lived in Manhatttan, New York and then in Kings County; Brooklyn, New York.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks for your time!

Sophia

[vj]

... my ggfather Carlo Guariglia (abt 1866 - 1941) was born in Craco, Italy and immigrated to New York prior to Nicholas' birth. I can not find Carlo's immigration or naturalization info on line and can only find a 1900 census ... Sophia

Hello Sophia!
Here's a possible 1905 naturalization record & 1892 ship manifest
The address on the index card is the same as your 1900 census?
1900 census image
Valarie

Naturalization Index Card

Publication Number: M1674
Publication Title: Soundex Index to Petitions for Naturalizations Filed in Federal, State, and Local Courts in New York City, 1792-1906
Publisher: NARA
State: New York
Short Description: NARA M1674. The Soundex index to naturalization petitions filed in federal, state, and local courts in New York City, including New York, Kings, Queens and Richmond counties, 1792-1906.
Naturalization Year: 1905
Immigrant Surname: GUARIGLIA
Immigrant Given Name: CARL.
Court: SUPREME COURT, NEW YORK COUNTY.
Birth Year: [Age]
Age: 38
Nationality: ITALY
Arrival Year: 1892
Witness 1 Full Name: WILLIAM L. JACKEY
Witness 2 Full Name: [Blank]
---

from information on Carlo Guariglia Index Card

possible 1892 manifest

19 Dec 1892 Ship Elysia, Naples to NY
line 623
Carlo Guariglia 25 (abt 1867)
- Mason
- last residence Potenza
- destination NY
---

... I am currently a US citizen and I am looking into obtaining dual citizenship (Italy) and not sure if I qualify. I researched some info on the subject and because I do not have enough info on my ancestors - I can not determine if I am eligible ... Sophia

Here's a short list of possible situations in which you may qualify from the Expats in Italy website

1) Your father was an Italian citizen at the time of your birth and you never renounced your rights to Italian citizenship (trust me. you haven’t done this.)

2) Your mother was an Italian citizen at the time of your birth, you were born AFTER January 1, 1948 and you never renounced your rights to Italian citizenship.

3) Your father was born in the USA, his father was an Italian Citizen at the time of his birth and neither you or your dad renounced your rights to Italian Citizenship.

4) Your mother was born in the USA, her father was an Italian Citizenship when she was born and you were born AFTER January 1, 1948 and neither of you renounced your rights to Italian citizenship,

5) Your paternal or maternal grandfather was born in the USA, your maternal or paternal GREAT grandfather was an Italian citizen at the time of his/her birth, neither you nor your father/mother nor you grandfather/grandmother ever renounced rights to Italian Citizenship.

[vj]

other possible census records:

1930 census

Home in 1930:
1620 75th Street
Brooklyn, Kings, New York

Carlo Guariglia 63
Rose Guariglia 58
Antonette Guariglia 18
Jeanette Guariglia 15
Carlo Guariglia 11

Domonick Matera 34
Mary Matera 26
James Matera 7
Carlo Matera 5
---

1920 census

Home in 1920:
50 Mott Street
Manhattan Assembly District 1, New York, New York

Carlo Guaregelia 52
Rose Guaregelia 47
John Guaregelia 20
Mary Guaregelia 16
Rose Guaregelia 15
Antonetta Guaregelia 9
Jannie Guaregelia 5
Carlo Guaregelia 1
---

1910 census

Home in 1910:
44 Baxter Street
Manhattan Ward 6, New York, New York

Carlo Guaigeta 43
Rosa Guaigeta 38
Margarite Guaigeta 18
Nicholas Guaigeta 16
John Guaigeta 11
Mary Guaigeta 6
Amelia Guaigeta 5
Charlotte Guaigeta 11/12
---

Note on ancestry. com searches
Names can be pretty mangled in the transcriptions
ancestry allows partial name searches using 1st 3 letters followed by an *
If you know the location, you can even do a search wthout a last name
Example, 1910 was found using
Car*
born 1867 +\- 2yrs
Italy
wife Ros*
in New York, New York county

[mler]

I do see a potential problem if you are applying at the NY Consulate, because your grandfather was born before 1912. This new thread seems to indicate that the NY Consulate will reject applicants for that reason.

http://www.icgsmb.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4098

[taxi55]

Hi Valarie - You are my saviour!

This was only my second posting request for info on IGG and both times you have come to my rescue.

That is a great tip about searching on ancestry. It's amazing growing up how many spelling versions of that surname I have encountered.

Regarding the Dual Citizenship. So - now we know that:

My paternal grandfather (Nicholas) was born in the USA in 1894.
My paternal GREAT grandfather (Carlo) was an Italian citizen at the time of Nicholas' birth. (Carlo was naturalized in 1905.)

5) Your paternal or maternal grandfather was born in the USA, your maternal or paternal GREAT grandfather was an Italian citizen at the time of his/her birth, neither you nor your father/mother nor you grandfather/grandmother ever renounced rights to Italian Citizenship.

How would I, my father or paternal grandfather ever renounced rights to Italian citizenship? I don't think we did? So does this mean that I can pursue dual citizenship from my paternal side? I don't think I would qualify under the other options.

Thanks again Valarie.

[vj]

... How would I, my father or paternal grandfather ever renounced rights to Italian citizenship? I don't think we did? So does this mean that I can pursue dual citizenship from my paternal side? I don't think I would qualify under the other options ...

Sophia
I'm so glad we could help!
Perhaps mler or another expert on 'citizenship jure sanguinis' can answer your question .
Valarie

[taxi55]

OK. So I had a few moments of happiness thinking I qualify before reading mler's post. thanks mler

Then since I do not think I qualify under the other 4 circumstances Valarie quoted, I am sunk - no opportunity for dual citizenship?

I have to process through the NY Consulate? Any other options out there for me? This means a great deal to me.

[taxi55]

OK. Myler - I found this on the link you provided:

NOTE: Ancestors naturalized before July 1st 1912 cannot transmit citizenship (Law n. 555 of June 13, 1912)

I found other material that stated as you did, that the interpretation depends on the Consulate. Is that common practice?

Looks like not because my grandfather was born prior to 1912 but rather because his father Carlo was naturalized prior to 1912 is the reason. Am I understanding this correctly? Any experts out there?

Would any one be able to help find the Naturalization paperwork for my maternal grandfather, John Acierno?

I would guess that he was naturalized before my mom was born, (which would be the reason I could not apply for dual citizenship through him) but I might as well be certain just in case he wasn't. His 1920 census listed him as AL and his 1930 census as NA. If that is correct, than I would not be eligible because my mom was born after the 1930 census. The 1930 census for my paternal ggrandfather Joseph listed PA for him. So it appears that it depends on when John naturalized correct?

1) Your father was an Italian citizen at the time of your birth and you never renounced your rights to Italian citizenship (trust me. you haven’t done this.)

2) Your mother was an Italian citizen at the time of your birth, you were born AFTER January 1, 1948 and you never renounced your rights to Italian citizenship.

3) Your father was born in the USA, his father was an Italian Citizen at the time of his birth and neither you or your dad renounced your rights to Italian Citizenship.

4) Your mother was born in the USA, her father was an Italian Citizenship when she was born and you were born AFTER January 1, 1948 and neither of you renounced your rights to Italian citizenship,

5) Your paternal or maternal grandfather was born in the USA, your maternal or paternal GREAT grandfather was an Italian citizen at the time of his/her birth, neither you nor your father/mother nor you grandfather/grandmother ever renounced rights to Italian Citizenship.

Paternal grandfather: Giovanni (John) Acierno (1901 - 1995) Born in Italy. Immigrated with his family in 1908. Lived in Manhattan, NY first and then in Brooklyn, NY. Valarie - he was in the census you found in my first post while we were researching his father Giuseppe. At the time, we did not research John's naturalization and we were unable to determine if Giuseppe was ever naturalized.

Look forward to hearing from you and any other experts out there who might be able to sort this out. Thanks!

[mler]

Sophia,

I wish I were an expert on this, but this is a gray area; and I've only reported what I've heard. Apparently, this began with the SF consulate and then was adopted by Chicago as well. I'll explain as best as I can.

It seems that jure sanguinis was established by Italy as the method of acquiring citizenship in the mid-late 19th century. The 1912 law, however, specifically states that a child born in a country that gave him citizenship by birth, keeps his jure sanguinis Italian citizenship if his parent (before 1948, father) was a citizen at his birth. SF said that since the law went into effect in 1912, this only applied post-1912 and that naturalization before that date disqualified both the person naturalizing and his minor children. Chicago makes the same interpretation.

The link I posted indicates that NY has gone a step further. It seized on that statement and said that since this began in 1912, children born before that date did not get to keep jure sanguinis citizenship because until 1912 it was never expressly stated in Italian law that they did so.

This is the first I've heard of anything like this, and I was amazed since everything in the young woman's application was otherwise perfect. All I can say is that it may be best to take a "wait and see" approach before you begin the expense of collecting documents. This may be a case of an interviewer making a quick decision that does not reflect actual consulate policy. If not, it's a troubling development, and I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Regarding your maternal side--you would have to research naturalization for your maternal grandfather and also for your maternal greatgrandfather. Since your grandfather was born in Italy, he could have naturalized as an adult or as a minor if his father naturalized when he was under 21 years of age. Don't trust the census; they were not always accurate. Best of luck.

[taxi55]

Thanks for your insight MLER - I researched some websites for the 1912 issue and it is crazy out there. There is no consistency. On the NY Italian Consulate website, I did not even find mention of the 1912 issue within the qualifying section. It's a shame that people go through all the effort to research and obtain the appropriate documents and then they go the Consulate only to be hit with a huge surprise. For now, I plan on taking a back seat while all of this controversy goes on and see what happens.

Also - I found possible Naturalization items on ancestry for my maternal GGF and GF in NY, but since I do not have a subscription, I can not view. Would someone be able to provide me the results for the following:

Giuseppe Acierno: US District Court, New York
John Accornero: US District Court, New York (Could be him with the name spelled incorrectly.

Thanks for all your assistance! Enjoy your day!

[mler]

Sophia, I think you can get a trial membership for free, and that may be all you need. Also many libraries subscribe, perhaps yours. I'm not a member, but many here are. I'm sure someone can help.

I think you're doing the right thing by taking a "wait and see" approach. There IS no consistency, and no one deserves a "surprise" like that after spending so much time and money on research and documents, and following all the directions the consulate posts. I hope they make some decision on this that is both fair to applicants and consistent with the law. It would be nice, too, if all the consulates could agree.

I hope things work out on your maternal line.

[vj]

Thanks for your insight MLER - I researched some websites for the 1912 issue and it is crazy out there. There is no consistency. On the NY Italian Consulate website, I did not even find mention of the 1912 issue within the qualifying section. It's a shame that people go through all the effort to research and obtain the appropriate documents and then they go the Consulate only to be hit with a huge surprise. For now, I plan on taking a back seat while all of this controversy goes on and see what happens.

Also - I found possible Naturalization items on ancestry for my maternal GGF and GF in NY, but since I do not have a subscription, I can not view. Would someone be able to provide me the results for the following:

Giuseppe Acierno: US District Court, New York
John Accornero: US District Court, New York (Could be him with the name spelled incorrectly.

Thanks for all your assistance! Enjoy your day!

Giuseppe Acierno: US District Court, New York

Index to Declaration of Intent for Naturalization: New York County, 1907-1924
Name: Giuseppe Acierno Declaration
Volume: 203 Declaration
Page: 159
no image

New York Petitions for Naturalization
Name: Giuseppe Acierno Title and Location of Court: US District Court, New York
index card

Selected U.S. Naturalization Records - Original Documents, 1790-1974
Name: Giuseppe Acierno
Record Type: Petition for Naturalization Court
Type: District Court Court: (Rolls 0137-0170)
Petition No. 18842 - Petition No. 27497
Court Location: Southern District, New York Naturalization
Record Number: 20602
Roll Description: (Roll 0144)
Petition No. 20596 - Petition No. 20846
Archive Series: M1972 State: New York
document
---

John Accornero: US District Court, New York (Could be him with the name spelled incorrectly.

New York Petitions for Naturalization
Name: John Accornero
Title and Location of Court: US District Court, New York
index card

New York Petitions for Naturalization
Name: John Accornero
Birth Date: abt 1900 Age: 27
Naturalization Date: 15 Sep 1927
Former Nationality: Italy
Title and Location of Court: US District Court, New York
index card

Selected U.S. Naturalization Records - Original Documents, 1790-1974
Name: John Accornero
Record Type: Petition for Naturalization
Court Type: District Court Court: (Rolls 0443-0476)
Petition No. 98586 - Petition No. 107479
Court Location: Southern District, New York
Naturalization Record Number: 106479
Roll Description: (Roll 0640)
Petition No. 149021 - Petition No. 149256
Archive Series: M1972 State: New York
document

U.S. Naturalization Records Indexes, 1794-1995
Name: John Accornero
State: New York
Locality, Court: Southern District of New York,
District and Circuit Court
Title: Alphabetical Index to Petitions for Naturalization of the U.S. District Court and Circuit Court for the Southern District of New York, 1824-1941
Description: Aae, Volmer to Arntzen, Asbyorn
Series: M1676
index card
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footnote. com has a free search option, subscription to view images
they may have a free trial

[taxi55]

Thanks Valarie. I guess the good thing is that the "John Accorno" is NOT my family. So I will keep digging to find out where his Naturalization papers are (or if they even exist.) Thanks for the tip about footnote.com - I will check it out! Who knows - maybe I still have a shot at Dual Citizenship!

Have a great weekend!

[taxi55]

Hi All!

The info below that I thought might be Joseph and John Acierno turned out to be someone else, so I searched ancestry and other sites and still could not find the correct naturalization information on them.

So, before I put in a request to the INS program to search (and pay), I thought I should make another attempt to see if any one out there is able to help me find the naturalization info for John Acierno (1901 - 1995.) I know there are better database searchers out there than me.

If you need additional info - please let me know.

Thanks for all your help since I joined! I could not have come this far in my research without you.

[mler]

Hi Sophia,

I thought I'd post the thread I wrote about:

http://www.icgsmb.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4098

If you read this through, you will see that this is the very first time anyone has run into this problem in NY. It's possible that it's simply a bad decision by someone who misinterpreted the 1912 law. I really think we need to see if it happens again to really determine if this is a new policy at that consulate. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it's not.