re:origins of rocky marciano

[mezzogiorno62]

i understand that.and i'm certain census takers were most likely non italian.but whats odd is that,with family members in the household able to read,write,and speak english,that such a mangling could occur.it would have made more sense,say,in 1920,when pierino and pasqualina were still illiterate and there were no american born children.but by 1930 or 1940 this wasn't the case.

[jennabet]

Ah yes, the French connection. In reading these boards I have occasionally learned of a descendant confused because his Italian ancestor arrived from France. The Boston area, particularly, has a large community of Abruzzese immigrants and descendants from Orsogno in provincia di Chieti.

At the time of mass immigration two or three phantom travel agencies sprang up in Orsogna that had mysterious links to Marseilles. For a cash payment up front they assured the client that he could board ship at that port and enter the port of New York. Everything was done in great secrecy. For example, to let those interested know that important developments had taken place, a large white bed sheet would be hung from the balcony of the agency. The correspondence between the headquarters in Marseille and the agency was sent to a fake address. The telegram always bore the same message: "Carbonari essere arrivati" announcing that there had been a safe arrival in New York.

However, emmigration for Italians through France was illegal and a certain Orsognese named Mazzucchio who had established contact with the French police to facilitate clandestine emigration from France for the inhabitants of Orsogna for a sum of 10,000 Lire was arrested by the police while crossing the border into France.

The objective was for clandestine Italian immigrants (those without permission to enter the USA) to board ship at French ports as a seaman on ships bound for the United States. For this reason, it's easy to see how some of them ended up in Montreal instead.

[mezzogiorno62]

my french roots go back to the 17th and 18th centuries,long before italian immigration began.there was a smattering of italians and others that arrived with the original colonists,but more than 90% were from the provinces of france,particularly normandy,brittany,and those neighboring regions.no connection whatsoever to the few french immigrants who may have come in the 19th century and went directly to the usa.french immigration was never great to begin with,and even the original french colony in quebec only numbered 60,000.thats why they were overwhelmed by the english over time.10 to 1.they held off until 1760 because they had the overwhelming allegiance and support of the indians,who sided with the french for the most part.but sheer numbers overwhelmed the french in canada eventually.a fascinating history.

[jennabet]

Adding a postscript. While I'm not familiar at all with any such cases, I would assume that a case for recognition of Italian citizenship presented to a consulate in the USA in which the Italian immigrant arrived illegally on a merchant ship from France, might be denied. Afterall these immigrants didn't have permission from Italy to leave nor did they have permission from the USA to enter. It is in effect people smuggling with a head trafficker such as Mazzucchio lining his pockets, much like what is going on today. Yes, history does repeat itself.

[mezzogiorno62]

if i get any information from ripa teatina regarding the parents of pierino marchegiano i'll post it.i also messaged san bartolomeo in galdo for information on the family of pasqualina picciuto.i'll also post that.

[mezzogiorno62]

in 1940 the name marchegiano was spelled "markipha" which is even odder than markajohn.whats amazing is that this was 1940-not 1900,1910,or 1920,these people had been here for a generation and had american born children.very commonplace.and it would be more understandable for an immigration officer of those early years making mistakes,as people were arriving enmass daily from many countries.but not a census taker of 1930 or 1940.italian immigrants were long resident by this time,and there were american born children in the household.these census takers must have been poorly trained,ignorant,or from another planet.

[jennabet]

in 1940 the name marchegiano was spelled "markipha" which is even odder than markajohn.whats amazing is that this was 1940-not 1900,1910,or 1920,these people had been here for a generation and had american born children.very commonplace.and it would be more understandable for an immigration officer of those early years making mistakes,as people were arriving enmass daily from many countries.but not a census taker of 1930 or 1940.italian immigrants were long resident by this time,and there were american born children in the household.these census takers must have been poorly trained,ignorant,or from another planet.

I think you may be assuming a little too much when you say southern Italian immigrants, especially women, who arrived in 1911 should have been literate AND fluent in the English language by 1930 or at least by 1940. For example, my maternal grand-mother who arrived in 1912 was totally illiterate in Italy (as it was not important for the girls to be educated) and remained totally illiterate the entire time she lived in the USA until her death in 1981 and she also never spoke a word of English. If she answered the door when the census taker arrived, I can assure you she would not have noticed or even cared about what he wrote. My grand-parents also had American born children in the home. Like Rocky Marciano who in 1940 at age 17 was probably hitting a bag at the gym, my uncles would have been caddying on the golf course instead of waiting for the census taker to arrive.

Perhaps if you find a US naturalization certificate for Pasqualina it might prove she was literate. In my grand-mother's case, she WAS naturalized still illiterate at age 92 because US Vice President Joe Biden, then a young Senator from Delaware and a friend of the family made an exception for my grand-mother and personally issued her the oath of citizenship as she loved America and wanted to be a citizen before she died.

[mezzogiorno62]

my paternal grandparents immigrated to the u.s.separately.my grandfather in 1900 age 30 and my grandmother in 1902 age 19.my grandfather was never naturalized.he died in 1953.my grandmother wasnt naturalized until 1960,the year before she died.i find that the age at which an immigrant arrived tended to have an influence on his/her literacy.my grandfather was 30,older than most immigrants arriving for the first time,and never was able to converse or write well in english.on the other hand,at 19 my grandmother was more conversant in english and her signature was much clearer than my grandfathers by comparison.my grandparents were definitely older than rocky's parents when they arrived,so should have been more susceptible to a census takers mistakes.but in all 3 censuses so far that i've found them in(1920,1930,1940)our family name of ricco was never mangled or misspelled.that could be due to my grandmothers vigilance or to better census takers(my town of middleboro is very close to brockton).who knows.just an observation.maybe ricco(originally ricca)was much easier to enunciate than marchegiano.and ricca only became ricco because of my grandfathers spelling of it on early documents.thank god my surname wasn't mangled by some immigration officer or census taker.

[jennabet]

You've made some good observations and I agree the age of the immigrant on arrival could be a determining factor as to whether or not they were literate and could speak the English language. Also depending where they originated from and birth order would have been important. For instance, often only the oldest son would have received an education in Italy. And in some very rural areas none of the girls were educated.

[mezzogiorno62]

my grandparents were untypical for the times.my grandmother had many friends outside the italian community,handled the familiy's finances,could read and write very well,became naturalized,and never dressed in the stereotypical black of so many immigrant women.none of this applied to my grandfather.he was old school with his workingmans ways and grapevines-but he deferred to his wife on most things and was considered the "good cop" to my grandmothers "bad cop".she was the boss in every way-and everyone knew it.in official documents where both signatures were required,hers was the larger and more readable,compared to my grandfathers"chicken scratch".this didnt make her very popular in the italian neighborhood-either with the husbands who saw her as a threat,or the wives,who were probably jealous or appalled by her audacity.it challenged the image of the man as absolute head of the house and his wife as perpetually dressed in black walking behind him.

[jennabet]

Enjoyed reading about your grand-mother. Even today there are many strong women in Italy. My friend, the daughter of contadini (farm peasants) has a husband and four sons. She will always confer with them on family business but they usually go along with what she decides. And she tells people that she is the "CarabinierA", or policewoman, for which there is no word in the Italian language. But as they say in Italy, "The men run the country and the women run the men".

[mezzogiorno62]

ironically my grandparents 2 children,my dad and my aunt,took after my grandfather.my dad generally deferred to my mother,of french canadian descent-and my aunt deferred to her husband,who was,like my grandmother,sicilian.of course my grandmother and my mother never got along,leaving my poor dad caught in the middle.but my grandmother got along no better with her sicilan son in law,whom she called the boss.in turn he found her over bearing and obstinate.he much preferred his father in law-my complacent much beloved neapolitan grandfather.in my house my mom was the boss.in my aunts house her husband was the boss.neither my dad nor my aunt inherited the firmness and singular mindedness of their mother.

[mezzogiorno62]

just recieved the birth record via email attachment for pierino marchegiano-actually quirino-from ripa teatina chieti abruzzi.his father was rocco and his mother was luisa salvatore.4-20-1894.if i knew how to post it here i would.tried to download it here from a pdf file. waiting for the birth record of pasqualina picciuto in san bartolomeo in galdo benevento campania.