Laudani + Zappalá (was Wrong Names, Places + Surnames)

[john_dominic]

On a sort of related subject - what's the deal with this Concetta Zappala having two parents, both with the same last name?

I'm guessing "kissing cousins?"

[suanj]

Hi, if you knew how many cousins are same name in Italy... and if you knew how many weddings with persons of same name... but you can think what you wish about your story search... I say only my free and personal opinion... regards, suanj

[mfjp]

Hi John,

Nicely layed out page (pg.1) with all the links...

No clue as to who Concetta's brother was??

As for kissing cousins...possible...

Having done a genealogy file of my ancestral town... I have documented 3 Maria Lippas all marrying 3 Francesco Lippas... a research nightmare...

mfjp

[john_dominic]

Ok, to sum it up:

A. You're saying I can make no conclusions with this data.
B. Even though there's no Concetta Zappala in Trecastagni or Pedara in the window of time of her birth, this may not be my Concetta?
C. I need to get Concetta's marriage application and certificate from the Essex County, MA records:

Essex County
36 Federal St.
Salem, MA 01970
(508) 741-0200

D. I need to get the Stato di Famiglia of Alfio Zappalà, father of Concetta from Pedara. (I never even knew this existed or have any idea where to get it from).
E. I need to get the Stato di Famiglia of Alfio and Concetta Laudani to prove they didn't have kids in Pedara.

[john_dominic]

Hi John,

Nicely layed out page (pg.1) with all the links...

No clue as to who Concetta's brother was??

As for kissing cousins...possible...

Having done a genealogy file of my ancestral town... I have documented 3 Maria Lippas all marrying 3 Francesco Lippas... a research nightmare...

mfjp

No, I was told she was "the seventh sister of a seventh sister" with no references to her having a brother, and that she was overworked, scrubbing toilets in the family hotel, and somehow the black sheep of the family.

I do know she came over with a sister Rosa, and that matches.

The substantially older brother could have died soon after coming to America, for all we know.

[mfjp]

What about the 1920 and 1930 census... ??

You were told his name was Carmelo when you started this search?

mfjp

[john_dominic]

What about the 1920 and 1930 census... ??

You were told his name was Carmelo when you started this search?

mfjp

Ok, here's where it gets complicated.

First off, yes, I was told he was Carmello Laudani (prounced verbally to me as "la-ow-an-down-ie", which I know better by modern spellings is properly Laudani).

At some time he left Concetta for another woman, leaving her on her own with two children. This was not a formal divorce. He simply was an assh*le (excuse my french) and just left. And, since she only had them, and the last one was born on 11 October 1912 (Margaret), the earliest he could have left her would have been in the beginning of 1912. It could have been far later, also.

Additionally, somehow he ended up in Milwaukee and Concetta ended up in Chicago.

I do not know if they moved to Chicago and he left her then, or he left her in Lawrence, MA and they went their seperate ways. Or, thirdly, he could have met this other woman (another "Concetta / Concettina" - it seems he traded her in for a younger model) in Lawrence, MA and moved to Milwaukee to start a new life.

What I do know is that he shows up in the 1920 Census in Milwaukee, not Chicago or Lawrence, MA - so they had to have split up by then:



Then again, in the 1930 Census:



Unfortunately, I cannot find Concetta in either census, anywhere, under her maiden or married name.

It would make logical sense that she had her two children with her, since he didn't even have contact with his family until his new wife made him, years later, and with that i've got zero cross-referenced data with searching like finding a "Concetta" with a "Veronica" and / or "Margaret".

If you've got some obscure methods to find it, float it here, but i've found nothing.

Additionally, note that she had a man friend she was living with, later on (I have no idea how much older she was), but not married (since she never formally divorced from Carmello), of whom no one has any idea his name in my entire family. They were probably too old to have kids, or at least they never did.

She died "soon after" my grandmother was born (1926), so it could have been before 1930, although given the fact that she remembers her, even what she did and how she looked, i'd hedge a bet it was slightly later than that.

Add to that, the fact that there IS a 1920 record of an "Alfio Laudani" that I just found, still in Lawrence, MA with a wife named "Concetta" who had a whole set of different kids, with different names, etc, etc:



What a mess! 8O

I am really trying to find out what happened before this "situation" occurred, since all it does is make my research even more problematic to include it.

Thoughts?

[mfjp]

I am really trying to find out what happened before this "situation" occurred, since all it does is make my research even more problematic to include it.

Thoughts?

Well.. ok... ummmmm... hmmm.... she was married the day after her birthday....!!!

Ok... just to confirm some of the dates...

G2 Grandmother Concetta Zappala born Jan 10, 1887

Married in Italy to Alfio Laudani Jan 11, 1906

G2 Grandmother Concetta Zappala Laudani died from about 1926-1930+-

G1 Grandperson Veronica born 1907

G1 Grandperson Margaret October 11, 1912

And, since she only had them, and the last one was born on 11 October 1912 (Margaret), the earliest he could have left her would have been in the beginning of 1912.

Wait... when could he have left them??

After Margaret was born?? or before???

Are you still convinced that she married in the USA???

Thank you for posting the rest of the info... sometimes not an easy thing to do... but info such as this yields results... hopefully.

mfjp

[john_dominic]

I am really trying to find out what happened before this "situation" occurred, since all it does is make my research even more problematic to include it.

Thoughts?

Well.. ok... ummmmm... hmmm.... she was married the day after her birthday....!!!

Ok... just to confirm some of the dates...

G2 Grandmother Concetta Zappala born Jan 10, 1887
This is based on the birth certificate above. It could be wrong. From the only 100% valid record of her age I have (1910 Census on 8 Apr), she was 23 at the time, so that seems to add up.

Married in Italy to Alfio Laudani Jan 11, 1906
Again, it's based on the birth certificate. I could be wrong, and it could be the wrong Concetta but it does work with Veronica being born in 1907.

G2 Grandmother Concetta Zappala Laudani died from about 1926-1930+-
Yes

G1 Grandperson Veronica born 1907
For the record she is my g-grandmother, and she was born 15 Feb 1907.

G1 Grandperson Margaret October 11, 1912
For the record she is my g-grandaunt, and yes she was born 11 Oct 1912.

And, since she only had them, and the last one was born on 11 October 1912 (Margaret), the earliest he could have left her would have been in the beginning of 1912.

Wait... when could he have left them??

After Margaret was born?? or before???
I have no idea, just that he did. He had to still be together 9 months before Margaret was born to get Concetta pregnant, right? That would mean at the earliest, he left her at the beginning of 1912. The latest would have been right before the census in Wisconsin in 1920.

Are you still convinced that she married in the USA???
No, but I must note that her marriage was not condoned by her parents and as my grandmother put it "she ran off with him and got married."

But why would they go back to get married (if the immigration records are correct) and then come back within a year to have Veronica be born in Lawrence, MA (it's on her death certificate)?

Not to mention, if the immigration records are correct, she would have came over to work in the textile mills in Lawrence, MA (where there was a historic strike in 1912), which would mean she was not loaded, and going back and forth across the atlantic wouldn't be financially possible.

But...

This is only if the passenger manifests are truly hers. If they are not hers, and it's sheer coincidence another Concetta Zappala has another sister named Rosa, then she could have gotten married in Italy.

But, how likely do you see that to be possible?

Thank you for posting the rest of the info...

mfjp

J

[mfjp]

I am wondering about Concetta's manifest... I am not comfortable with it...

Just because Rosa is listed on line 3 ... with her name crossed off... doesn't mean it's Concetta's sister... it also mentions that this Rosa was going to join a brother Matteo...

I see that Matteo (on line #1) and Concetta as siblings...

But not Rosa...

hope the link of the manifest works...

http://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... tta4bj.gif

Am I wrong? What do you think?... was there a page 2 to this manifest?? I will check it anyways...

mfjp

[john_dominic]

I am wondering about Concetta's manifest... I am not comfortable with it...

Just because Rosa is listed on line 3 ... with her name crossed off... doesn't mean it's Concetta's sister... it also mentions that this Rosa was going to join a brother Matteo...

I see that Matteo (on line #1) and Concetta as siblings...

But not Rosa...

hope the link of the manifest works...

http://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... tta4bj.gif

Am I wrong? What do you think?... was there a page 2 to this manifest?? I will check it anyways...

mfjp

Interesting point.

They could not be siblings, or they could all.

Additionally, I noticed the "M. Concetta Zappala" just now.

This could be a M Concetta Zappala, not my Concetta.

Or, it could be that my Concetta was originally M Concetta Zappala and she went by her middle name when she was in America (I had another relative who did something like that)?

Or, that just could be a 'M' for "Miss?'

Then again, I just noticed the double quotes in the crossed off section of Rosa, which would mean it was the same as Concetta, above, being a sister.

**shrugs**

Can't these things be ANY harder?

[Essgee]

Believe you have the wrong Concetta......

You Concetta arrived per your listing above in Boston in Jan. 1905. However, I thought that the listing on the bottom of the page of her birth records indicated that she was probably married in Italy. The Concetta whose birth record you have was indeed married in Italy...to Alfio. There is an arrival record for her under the listing Cancetta Zappala arriving in the Port of NY at Ellis Island. She arrived on July 16, 1906 on her way to Lawerence Mass to join her husband, Alfio. The ship was the Molke. This is not your Concetta.

So you have the correct passenger record. Now, you need to find the correct Concetta in the birth records. It is not unusual to have more then one of the same name in the same generation in the same town. And her birth record might only list her name as Maria...not Concetta. So you need to check out other things.

A family certificate of Alfio will not help...he is the wrong husband.........

[mfjp]

Essgee...please confirm... which is the correct passenger record??

Glad you posted.

mfjp

[Essgee]

I believe the passenger record he has from the Boston arrivals is indeed his GGgrandmother.

But, with the other passenger arrival at Ellis Island of Concetta Zappala married to Alfio Laudani, it proves that the birth record he has is NOT FOR HIS GGGRANDMOTHER...but for this woman here, who has the same name as his gggrandmother.

At this point, it is the only thing that is provable....two manifests, two different women, the second being after her marriage to Alfio and so NOT THE BRIDE OF CARMELO....

Back to the drawing board. I would suggest going through the town records by microfilm at the FHL. In this case, you can probably find the correct listing.....As you can see, he has an EXTRACTED record...I would rather see it up close and personal...and it could lead to more clues.....

I have been checking...and this is not easy.

[suanj]

just an thought. John Dominic in first time you say:

-Carmelo LAUDANI from Caccamo... Caccamo is Palermo province... now from Pedara.. Pedara is in Catania province.. as you think that was Caccamo initially... you have some family memory about this...?

-Concetta: Trecastagni always in Catania province... but no result as you say.... why you say in first time TRECASTAGNI...?

About your search I can say.. that for to understand the right trace you must start from 1910 census: in this document Carmelo is sure YOUR Carmelo ( and no Alfio or other).. and Concetta is YOUR Concetta ! and, because it is of 1910 year, is very possible that the year of immigration listed is right, (because normally on the census, the error probabilities it increases with passing of the time)and about Carmelo seems 190...(1905?)wrote but sure married from 4 years... and Concetta immigration year seems 1904 frankly.... so married in USA... 2 years after the immigration if 1904 is right year..

-NOW: the search must to re start
-from right first name: Carmelo and Concetta, from year immigration and to try the just records and no similar.. ...
just an suggestion... regards, suanj