Yeah, the timing is really messed up.
But you do have it right. Your grandmother did not lose her Italian citizenship when her husband naturalized. And she did not become a US citizen until she herself naturalized.
As an historical note—before the 1922 Cable Act, in the US, a woman’s citizenship was determined by her husband’s citizenship. In your grandmother’s case, this would not apply since, not only was she not living in the US, her husband did not naturalize until 1930. When your gm arrived in the US, she was an Italian citizen only.
Your mother was born an Italian citizen, but US law granted her US citizen status because she had a US citizen father. This was meaningless while she lived in Italy, but the moment she set foot on US soil, she was a US citizen, a citizenship derived through her father’s naturalization. Italy considered that the citizenship obtained by a minor through the father’s naturalization, caused the loss of Italian citizenship.
The unfortunate part of all this is that had she been born in the US and obtained her citizenship jus soli, she could have claimed Italian citizenship since her mother was Italian when she was born.
Italian citizenship law is very liberal, but at the same time, sometimes a bit unfair. There have been situations in which some siblings do not qualify for jure sanguinis recognition, and siblings born later, qualify. My own children qualified through their ggf, my grandfather, but could not qualify through their own Italian-born father.
Weird question about grandfathers derivative (American) citizenship and what it does to my mother's
Re: Weird question about grandfathers derivative (American) citizenship and what it does to my mother's
Yes, ICA was able to retrieve the Petition of Naturalization for my great-grandfather, no record found for my great-grandmother and a certified letter was sent back noting this which will be used for my 1948 case. I also received, from ICA, a scanned copy of the documents.
As of 2022 though, the Northumberland County Prothonotary will no longer retrieve these records so you'd have to visit in person to do a search. As I don't live in the area and have not visited in several years, due to covid, ICA just got in before the deadline.
If you live nearby, suggest you stop in and do a physical search of the records as anything pre-1906 will be in their files. If naturalization happened after Sept. 27, 1906, then USCIS would have the record.
Re: Weird question about grandfathers derivative (American) citizenship and what it does to my mother's
Really?
This is the part I don't understand. Imagine her family pulled a "Home Alone" move and forgotten her when they moved to the US and she stayed behind in Italy. Looking back from 2022, she would have a 1948 claim (maybe - depends on what the judges decide. There seems to be some dispute at the moment)
But what would she be in, say, the 1930's?
She was born on Italian soil - but Italy isn't a jus soli nation, so that doesn't matter.
She had an Italian mother - but as I understand it Italy was a purely jus sanguinis through the father, so long as the father could be identified. In this case he could, and he was (presumably) solely American.
There are some rules that seem to apply to stateless people, but she wasn't so none of those rules would apply.
Seems like she'd just be an American living in Italy without a 'green card'. By definition at least, if not in practice. I suppose she could have applied for Italian citizenship when she turned 21.
You know, this struck me as a logically absurd situation till I typed the words "green card", then I remembered that it would be totally possible (even common) for a child to be brought to America at a very young age, live a completely normal life, realize as an adult that nobody had done the paperwork twenty years ago, be declared in violation of the immigration laws and promptly be expelled.
Citizenship issues can be awfully petty at times.
Re: Weird question about grandfathers derivative (American) citizenship and what it does to my mother's
Yeah, I'm on the west coast and have talked with the the Northumberland County Prothonotary and they ... no longer receive these requests with much enthusiasm.
On the other hand, if you have to get birth or marriage records the Northumberland County Orphan's Court (essentially the family court for that jurisdiction) is really helpful. In fact, though I didn't need it, they have a part-time person on their staff who is available for paid research on the side.
Also, the Northumberland County Historical Society is back in operation, and they have a lot of information at their disposal.
https://www.northumberlandcountyhistori ... y-research
They advertise general genealogical searches for $40 , and say they have someone authorized to access the Northumberland County court records for custom research.
At the moment (March '22) they're just opening the place up and getting organized again so their response to email has been very slow, but if you have a specific question, they might be a good go-to.
Re: Weird question about grandfathers derivative (American) citizenship and what it does to my mother's
Good to know on the local researchers. I still have family nearby, but have not visited the area due to Covid since 2019. I am planning a trip back this spring, but I'm not sure I'll have enough time to visit to do in-person searches.SteveS wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 03:07
Yeah, I'm on the west coast and have talked with the the Northumberland County Prothonotary and they ... no longer receive these requests with much enthusiasm.
On the other hand, if you have to get birth or marriage records the Northumberland County Orphan's Court (essentially the family court for that jurisdiction) is really helpful. In fact, though I didn't need it, they have a part-time person on their staff who is available for paid research on the side.
Also, the Northumberland County Historical Society is back in operation, and they have a lot of information at their disposal.
https://www.northumberlandcountyhistori ... y-research
They advertise general genealogical searches for $40 , and say they have someone authorized to access the Northumberland County court records for custom research.
At the moment (March '22) they're just opening the place up and getting organized again so their response to email has been very slow, but if you have a specific question, they might be a good go-to.
All info related to my 1948 case has been retrieved by ICA and myself remotely. My case is soon ready to file.
I also found some documents via Landex, marriage certificates and other info online, might be worth it for you to check that link as well, you can search via Northumberland and other counties, not free to download the info but relatively inexpensive.
https://www.landex.com/webstore/jsp/car ... Search.jsp
Re: Weird question about grandfathers derivative (American) citizenship and what it does to my mother's
Lots about citizenship is weird. The thing is there was no coordination between the US and Italy regarding citizenship status.
Your mother was born in Italy to an Italian mother and, as far as the comune was concerned, an Italian father. It was highly unlikely in 1930 that an Italian man would report his naturalization status to his comune. He may even have considered himself to be a dual citizen. Many did. So, yeah, your mother was Italian. She only officially became a US citizen when her naturalized father reported her birth to US officials and obtained a US passport for her.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the comune still has her designated as an Italian citizen since I doubt anyone reported her US citizenship. Had she remained in Italy, she likely would have married an Italian man and had Italian children, and no one would have questioned her citizenship. Unfortunately, in terms of claiming that citizenship today, after many year living in the US, the information that is required would point to her derivative citizenship, and the records would be updated.
Actually, this happened to my husband who was born and raised in Italy. His comune considered him an Italian citizen long after he naturalized in the US. Many years later, he was tracked down by the local Italian consulate and told that he was considered by Italy to be a draft dodger. He informed them of his naturalization, and only then was the correction made. It’s unlikely this would happen to your mom.
Your mother was born in Italy to an Italian mother and, as far as the comune was concerned, an Italian father. It was highly unlikely in 1930 that an Italian man would report his naturalization status to his comune. He may even have considered himself to be a dual citizen. Many did. So, yeah, your mother was Italian. She only officially became a US citizen when her naturalized father reported her birth to US officials and obtained a US passport for her.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the comune still has her designated as an Italian citizen since I doubt anyone reported her US citizenship. Had she remained in Italy, she likely would have married an Italian man and had Italian children, and no one would have questioned her citizenship. Unfortunately, in terms of claiming that citizenship today, after many year living in the US, the information that is required would point to her derivative citizenship, and the records would be updated.
Actually, this happened to my husband who was born and raised in Italy. His comune considered him an Italian citizen long after he naturalized in the US. Many years later, he was tracked down by the local Italian consulate and told that he was considered by Italy to be a draft dodger. He informed them of his naturalization, and only then was the correction made. It’s unlikely this would happen to your mom.
