Birth Certificate ... Cosenza, Italy

[musaccosteve]

Thank you very much for all your detective work. Galasso is the name noted on my father's death certificate for his mother, my grandmother. My grandfather was said to be born in Bari, Italy as well. Would this be where I would request birth certificates and the marriage certificate for my grandmother and grandfather. . .

Comune di Bari

Ripartizione Servizi Demografici Elettorali e Statistici

Ufficio Stato Civile – Settore Corrispondenza –

Largo Fraccacreta, 1

70122 – Bari

Italy

Also, I found out that the commune request ... "the Board specifies in the request if the document is on the multilingual model." What is meant by multilingual model? Does this mean I make my request both in English and Italian?

Thank you all for your help. I am getting closer, I think, I hope.

Take a look closely at the actual spellings on the manifest. I believe they were transcribed incorrectly. Galona is actually Galasso, and the children are Musacco. Michele=Michael, Concetta=Constance. Don't know why Angela doesn't appear in census. Nina was born here.

The name Galasso is a name that is common in the town of Canneto. That is why I think that is the correct spelling of Teresa's name and Canneto is probably the town of her birth. However, the manifest states that the family leaves no one in Italy so her parents are either dead or immigrated.

The family does not seem to appear on any other manifests to NY. But they may have sailed into another port.

[johnnyonthespot]

I believe you want this address:

Ufficio dello Stato Civile Centrale - Dichiarazioni di Nascita/Morte
Comune di Bari
Largo Angelo Fraccacreta 1
70122 Bari
ITALY

Email: statocivile.comunebari@pec.rupar.puglia.it (remove the spaces)

"Multilingual Model" refers to the form to be returned to you. It signifies that the form is to be in multi-language format. As an example, in one document I have obtained, the heading for the child's surname is:

"Cognome del bambino - nom de famile de l'enfant - Familienname de Kindes - surname of child - apellido del nino - familienaam van het kind - cocugun soyadi"

[musaccosteve]

Thank you, Carmine. I will be mailing my requests in a couple days. I will let you and the others know of the outcome.

Steve

[musaccosteve]

I currently have a certified copy of my father's birth, death certificate, and original copy of his marriage to my mother. I also have a copy of my birth certificate. Can I make copies of these forms and use them as certified copies if they are lost?

Since I am divorced, do I need to provide a copy of my divorcee decree as part of the process.

Also, I have a daughter who is twenty-three. What would I need to do so I can apply for her and myself at the same time, or is this even possible?

[johnnyonthespot]

1) All documents submitted must be original, certified, copies with raised seals and/or inked signatures, as applicable to the issuing authority. They will not be returned to you. You can make regular photocopies for your own use, but should you lose the originals, you will have to obtain proper replacements.

2) If you married before April 27, 1983 and divorced after that date, then - believe it or not - your former wife can lay claim to Italian citizenship as well. She can even apply "with you" - all you need to do is to include her certified/translated/apostilled birth certificate with your own. If you have a good relationship with her and want to do something nice... or if you have a bad relationship and need a bargaining chip...

3) Yes, technically you need to alert the consulate to your current marital status and provide a certified and translated copy of your divorce decree. Some consulates have specific requirements; you can inquire in advance, or wait until your first meeting to learn what your consulate requires.

4) Many consulates now permit delayed registration of birth as the simplest way to handle adult children; it is what I did for my then 23 (or was he 22?) year-old son with the New York consulate. Basically, after your own citizenship has been recognized, you simply register your daughter's birth just as you would if she were a newborn. You fill out the form, attach a certified/translated/apostilled copy of her birth certificate, and mail or bring it to your consulate. A week or two later and voilà, she has her letter of recognition and can apply for a passport.

Did I read that you would be applying at Los Angeles? See http://www.conslosangeles.esteri.it/Con ... to_civile/

[misbris]

I do not think that your family is from the town of Bari. I believe they are from the frazione of Canneto in the town of Adelfia in the province of Bari.

http://en.comuni-italiani.it/072/002/index.html

http://www.comune.adelfia.bari.it/

[musaccosteve]

Very good news for my daughter. Thank you so much for your time and effort on my behalf, Carmine. Yes, I will apply in L.A. If I am done by June 2011, I will be applying with Dallas, if there is consulate there.

This is getting complicated. Two of the marriages were after 1983, and the divorcee decree for the first marriage was 34 pages long. Are both wives entitled to citizenship, if I am approved?

1) All documents submitted must be original, certified, copies with raised seals and/or inked signatures, as applicable to the issuing authority. They will not be returned to you. You can make regular photocopies for your own use, but should you lose the originals, you will have to obtain proper replacements.

2) If you married before April 27, 1983 and divorced after that date, then - believe it or not - your former wife can lay claim to Italian citizenship as well. She can even apply "with you" - all you need to do is to include her certified/translated/apostilled birth certificate with your own. If you have a good relationship with her and want to do something nice... or if you have a bad relationship and need a bargaining chip...

3) Yes, technically you need to alert the consulate to your current marital status and provide a certified and translated copy of your divorce decree. Some consulates have specific requirements; you can inquire in advance, or wait until your first meeting to learn what your consulate requires.

4) Many consulates now permit delayed registration of birth as the simplest way to handle adult children; it is what I did for my then 23 (or was he 22?) year-old son with the New York consulate. Basically, after your own citizenship has been recognized, you simply register your daughter's birth just as you would if she were a newborn. You fill out the form, attach a certified/translated/apostilled copy of her birth certificate, and mail or bring it to your consulate. A week or two later and voilà, she has her letter of recognition and can apply for a passport.

Did I read that you would be applying at Los Angeles? See http://www.conslosangeles.esteri.it/Con ... to_civile/

[musaccosteve]

Misbris and Carmine: Does this mean I have to apply at the Adelphia commune for documents. I thought I read somewhere that requests went through the Bari commune for outlying areas, i.e., towns or communes within the province of Bari. Am I wrong? If I am, at what address of the Adelphia commune do I send my request for birth certificates and marriage certificate for my grandparents. Thank you. Steve

I do not think that your family is from the town of Bari. I believe they are from the frazione of Canneto in the town of Adelfia in the province of Bari.

http://en.comuni-italiani.it/072/002/index.html

http://www.comune.adelfia.bari.it/

[misbris]

Addresses are on the links I provided for you.

[musaccosteve]

Misbris and Carmine: I see the address now, thank you. I will email my contact person in the Bari, Commune (and province), if I should request through them. I am very sure I read that the Bari Commune handles requests for all the communes in the province. Only makes sense, when you are considering how small some of the communes are in the province. I will let you know what I find out. Got my postage and international reply coupons for mailing my requests. Steve

Addresses are on the links I provided for you.

[johnnyonthespot]

This is getting complicated. Two of the marriages were after 1983, and the divorcee decree for the first marriage was 34 pages long. Are both wives entitled to citizenship, if I am approved?

A woman who married an Italian male prior to (or is it up to and including?) April 27, 1983 was automatically granted Italian citizenship at the moment the marriage was legal. Note: this applied only to women who married Italian men; not to men who married Italian women.

This automatic citizenship survived divorce (there may have been a minimum length of marriage requirement) and even the death of the husband.

In our case, it is important to realize that if your Italian citizenship is recognized, it is retroactive to the moment you were born. Therefore, you were Italian when you married your wives, even if you and they did not know so at the time. Italian law on this subject changed effective April 27, 1983 and since your wives did not request recognition of their citizenship in a timely manner, it is now necessary not only that you married prior to that date, but also that the marriage was still in place after that date. Obviously, this can only apply to no more than one of your former wives, and possibly to neither.

As to the divorce decrees, is your daughter from your first marriage or your second? Some people would take the position that if your daughter is from the first marriage, then you do not even need to bring up the divorce or subsequent re-marriage (unless you are still married to your second wife...). However this would clearly be a violation of your duty as an Italian citizen to inform the government of all changes in your civil status and not a very good way to begin your new life. "ALL ITALIAN CITIZENS MUST UPDATE THEIR CIVIL STATUS BY PRESENTING THEIR DOCUMENTS (BIRTH CERTIFICATES, MARRIAGE CERTIFICATES, DIVORCE DECREES AND DEATHS) TO THE ITALIAN CONSULATE." http://www.conssanfrancisco.esteri.it/C ... to_civile/

From the same web page:

LIST OF DOCUMENTS NECESSARY TO REGISTER THE DIVORCE IN ITALY

1) Entire certified copy of Final Judgment of Dissolution of Marriage;

2) "Certificate of fact" or "Register of Action" or any other statements from the same Superior Court that issued the Final Divorce Sentence , in order to establish that no appeal or reopening of the case has been filed during the six months after the final divorce.

3) "APOSTILLE" issued by the "Secretary of State" (See: Secretaries of State within the jurisdiction of the Italian Consulate in Los Angeles) of the state where the divorce took place to be applied on documents specified on nos. 1 and 2 of this list;

4) Translation in Italian of all pages of the documents specified on nos. 1,2;

5) Documents 1,2 and 4 must be presented in a set of certified copy and a set of photocopies;

6) Proof of being in possession of the Italian citizenship at the date of the dissolution of marriage;

7) Sworn Affidavit stating a) that the Final Judgment of Dissolution of Marriage is not in contrast with a similar one issued by an Italian Court b) that application for the dissolution of marriage has not been submitted to an Italian Court before the beginning of the discussion of the case in a foreign Court);

8 ) Request addressed to the Mayor of your Comune to register the divorce (Richiesta trascrizione del divorzio al Sindaco);

9) Application form to register in Italy divorce abroad.

Items 1 through 4 describe the documentation requirements.

[musaccosteve]

Wow. This will be a major hurdle... lots of hoops to jump through...

My first marriage: 1967-1970
My second marriage: 1977-1977 (less than one year)
My third marriage: 1985-2000 (my daughter's mother)
*My fourth marriage: 2001-2004

* Remarried my first wife 30 years later.

Looks like I will make a translator very happy any ole how....

This is getting complicated. Two of the marriages were after 1983, and the divorcee decree for the first marriage was 34 pages long. Are both wives entitled to citizenship, if I am approved?

A woman who married an Italian male prior to (or is it up to and including?) April 27, 1983 was automatically granted Italian citizenship at the moment the marriage was legal. Note: this applied only to women who married Italian men; not to men who married Italian women.

This automatic citizenship survived divorce (there may have been a minimum length of marriage requirement) and even the death of the husband.

In our case, it is important to realize that if your Italian citizenship is recognized, it is retroactive to the moment you were born. Therefore, you were Italian when you married your wives, even if you and they did not know so at the time. Italian law on this subject changed effective April 27, 1983 and since your wives did not request recognition of their citizenship in a timely manner, it is now necessary not only that you married prior to that date, but also that the marriage was still in place after that date. Obviously, this can only apply to no more than one of your former wives, and possibly to neither.

As to the divorce decrees, is your daughter from your first marriage or your second? Some people would take the position that if your daughter is from the first marriage, then you do not even need to bring up the divorce or subsequent re-marriage (unless you are still married to your second wife...). However this would clearly be a violation of your duty as an Italian citizen to inform the government of all changes in your civil status and not a very good way to begin your new life. "ALL ITALIAN CITIZENS MUST UPDATE THEIR CIVIL STATUS BY PRESENTING THEIR DOCUMENTS (BIRTH CERTIFICATES, MARRIAGE CERTIFICATES, DIVORCE DECREES AND DEATHS) TO THE ITALIAN CONSULATE." http://www.conssanfrancisco.esteri.it/C ... to_civile/

From the same web page:

LIST OF DOCUMENTS NECESSARY TO REGISTER THE DIVORCE IN ITALY

1) Entire certified copy of Final Judgment of Dissolution of Marriage;

2) "Certificate of fact" or "Register of Action" or any other statements from the same Superior Court that issued the Final Divorce Sentence , in order to establish that no appeal or reopening of the case has been filed during the six months after the final divorce.

3) "APOSTILLE" issued by the "Secretary of State" (See: Secretaries of State within the jurisdiction of the Italian Consulate in Los Angeles) of the state where the divorce took place to be applied on documents specified on nos. 1 and 2 of this list;

4) Translation in Italian of all pages of the documents specified on nos. 1,2;

5) Documents 1,2 and 4 must be presented in a set of certified copy and a set of photocopies;

6) Proof of being in possession of the Italian citizenship at the date of the dissolution of marriage;

7) Sworn Affidavit stating a) that the Final Judgment of Dissolution of Marriage is not in contrast with a similar one issued by an Italian Court b) that application for the dissolution of marriage has not been submitted to an Italian Court before the beginning of the discussion of the case in a foreign Court);

8 ) Request addressed to the Mayor of your Comune to register the divorce (Richiesta trascrizione del divorzio al Sindaco);

9) Application form to register in Italy divorce abroad.

Items 1 through 4 describe the documentation requirements.

[musaccosteve]

Carmine: When my daughter applies for citizenship, after I complete my process, can her husband also apply for citizenship at the same time?

[musaccosteve]

Is it likely that my grandfather, Domenico Musacco (1874-1937), was not born in the province of Bari as I initially was told, and listed as the last place he lived, according to the Ellis manifest? I did a search for musacco on http://www.paginebianche.it and found no hits for the province of Bari. However, there were 12 Musaccos found for the commune of Puglia in the province of Foggia .... http://www.paginebianche.it/execute.cgi ... &om=0&td=4. Puglia is 45 miles from the Bari airport.

[johnnyonthespot]

Carmine: When my daughter applies for citizenship, after I complete my process, can her husband also apply for citizenship at the same time?

The situation for your daughter's husband - for any spouse of an Italian citizen married on or after April 27, 1983 - is substantially more difficult.

1) the spouse (your daughter's husband, in this case) must apply for naturalization as an Italian citizen. This will not impact his other (presumably US) citizenship(s), but it is nor is it absolutely guaranteed that his application will be approved

2) the marriage must have been in place for a minimum of three years if residing outside Italy or two years if in Italy before the application for citizenship by marriage can be submitted

3) a €200 fee must be paid before the application can be submitted

4) police and FBI background checks must be obtained for each area in which the applicant has ever resided; the Italian authorities reserve the right to turn down an applicant if they do not like what they see on these background reports

5) the consulate's role in citizenship by marriage applications is to ensure that all relevant documentation has been submitted and that the applicable fee has been paid. The consulate then forwards the application packet to Rome where the authorities have up to two years to make a final decision. Word on the street is that Rome typically takes most of the statutory two years before making its decision.

See http://www.conslosangeles.esteri.it/Con ... rriage.htm for more info.