Finding commune of S. Martino

[AngelaGrace56]

Fantastic!!! Thank you both. I hope you are both seeing what I am seeing.

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

Cognome Nome Num. lista Data di Nascita Località Nascita Provincia Anno Comune Iscrizione Mandamento Padre Madre
SARTORI Giov. Martino 333,00 11/11/1848 SAN MARTINO DI LUPARI PD 1848 SAN MARTINO DI LUPARI CITTADELLA Bortolo Pesce Maria

In my opinion, the Giovanni Martino Sartori who appears in the draft lists, son of Bortolo and Maria Pesce, is Francesco's father. In the death record you posted, Maria Pesce is Bortolo's wife.

I totally agree. I hadn't realised that you had posted the the above draft list. I've only just found it now. Anyway, all's well that ends well.

(I'm glad my detective work lines up!!!)

Edit to Add: I've realised that I made a typo earlier on. Pietro Sartore's estimated birth year was suppose to read circa 1856 not 1846.

Angela

[deigo1]

Thank you both for all the detective work. The Pietro is a nice find as well, because it also helps confirm the typo of "i" on Sartori vs Sartore on the military search for Giovanni.

Could someone help with the translations on these death records.

I was curious on the Bortolo Domenico death record (bottom link) if it will shed any more light on Maria Andretta (age of ? native of ?). Was also curious if there was any notation for the reason of death, as it looks like he may have only survived a short time period in 1876, as the birth was August of 1876.

Bortolo Sartore - Death Certificate
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Maria Pesce - Death Certificate
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Bortolo Domenico Sartore - Death Certificate
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Thanks D!

[AngelaGrace56]

Thank you both for all the detective work. The Pietro is a nice find as well, because it also helps confirm the typo of "i" on Sartori vs Sartore on the military search for Giovanni.

Could someone help with the translations on these death records.

I was curious on the Bortolo Domenico death record (bottom link) if it will shed any more light on Maria Andretta (age of ? native of ?). Was also curious if there was any notation for the reason of death, as it looks like he may have only survived a short time period in 1876, as the birth was August of 1876.

Bortolo Sartore - Death Certificate
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Maria Pesce - Death Certificate
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Bortolo Domenico Sartore - Death Certificate
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Thanks D!

Here are the first two:

Death No 132 – Bortolo Sartore, son of fu (deceased) Giovanni e fu (deceased) Elisabetta Zambon
Registered Monday, 8 December, 1873, San Martino di Lupari
Died on Sunday, 7 December 1873, 10 pm.
The deceased, Bortolo Sartore, son of Giovanni Bortolo and Elisabetta Zambon, both deceased, was 69 yo, a villico, born and living here , the husband of Maria Pesce. He died in his own house situated in Via Supervilla, No 93.
There’s no other telling info. The other people there are just the people reporting the event, and witnessing the registration.


Death No 78 – Maria Pesce daughter of deceased Angelo and deceased Santa Dengo
Registered 1 August 1906, San Martino di Lupari
Died yesterday (31 July), in this town, Via Supervilla, No 47?, 10.04 pm
Maria Pesce was 80 yo, a villica, residing this town, and born this town, the daughter of the deceased Angelo Pesce and of the deceased Santa Dengo, a villica, who both lived in this town when living. Maria was the widow of Bortolo Santore.

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

I was curious on the Bortolo Domenico death record (bottom link) if it will shed any more light on Maria Andretta (age of ? native of ?). Was also curious if there was any notation for the reason of death, as it looks like he may have only survived a short time period in 1876, as the birth was August of 1876.

Thanks D!

Death No 93: Bortolo Domenico Sartore
Registered 12 September 1876, San Martino di Lupari
Died yesterday, 11 September 1876, 5.10 pm in Via Supervilla, No 23.
The deceased was 21 days old, a villico, born and living this town, the son of Giovanni Sartore, a villico and of Maria Andretta, a villica, both living this town. He was celibe (never married).

There is no other info given about Maria Andretta on this record and no notation for the reason of their baby’s death. The cause of death "generally" isn’t given in Death Records. You will often see cause of death if the death has occurred in a different town or in a hospital. Generally these deaths would be recorded in Part II of the register. It seems like his father, Giovanni Sartore, a 28 yo villico, may have been one of the men reporting his child's death.

Have you checked for Maria Andretta’s death record? It will have the names of her parents and her place of birth. Andretta is a name that appears in the town, so she probably was local. Giovanni and Maria possibily married prior to 1871?

Angela

[deigo1]

Thank you very much Angela.

Yes, I went back through the one 10 year index that was applicable and then through 1902-1910 year by year again this morning, but I found the same.... a couple Maria Andretta's but none aligned to being Giovanni's wife.

Based on all the great finds yesterday, I agree that Giovanni and Maria's marriage predates the online records 1871 in San Martino, my guess is not my much based on his age (and could their be an older child?)

My only thought was that if by chance it said something different about where Maria was from in the death of their child or one of their children's marriage certificates maybe get lucky and it was in that town that was online.

On Frank's trip through Ellis in 1912 he has Giovanni listed as his in country contact living in San Martino, so figuring he was born in 1848 that only puts him at ~64, so Maria was probably similar. In my previous/pending request to the commune I had asked for both their death certificates.

Thanks again,
D.

[mmogno]

Look for "via Minotte" and "via Sopra la Villa = Supervilla" in San Martino di Lupari

[deigo1]

This is really neat thank you for sharing, assuming this is an old time map of the city? When I saw Supervilla, I was thinking that it was more like many town houses that were there together.. not that it was the street name


Also I did send a follow up email to the commune as its been over 2 weeks, and shared the updated information that yourself and Angela had found, hoping that it will help them look into the records.

Thanks!
D.

[mmogno]

This is really neat thank you for sharing, assuming this is an old time map of the city? When I saw Supervilla, I was thinking that it was more like many town houses that were there together.. not that it was the street name
....

SAN MARTINO DI LUPARI TREVIGIANO CON MONASTERO COMPIELLO E BORGHETTO
Catasto Austriaco | Mappe I Serie (Anno 1850)
https://archiviodistato.provincia.padov ... .php?c=201

[deigo1]

@Angela and @mmogno

I wanted to shared that after all the detective work the commune finally responded today with some of the missing answers!

#1. As you had thought they confirmed that Giovanni and Maria were married before the online documents, in May of 1870. They couldn't issue a formal marriage certificate as it pre-dates the civil registry, which for them is 1871. They did however issue a document confirming they were born there, their birthdates and the date of marriage the commune has recorded.

#2 The birth date of Giovanni matches what was found in the military database 11/11/1848

#3 As you had thought there may have been an earlier child (first born), and they confirmed Angela was born in 1871. They indicated, (if google translated this correctly ""Nel foglio 248 era inserita come figlia anche Sartore Angela (22/03/1871)" they found it on card. I didn't see it in the 1871 registry, but I was able to locate her marriage in 1901.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

#4. They sent me the death extracts so I have death dates etc, but not the information from the registry to show the parents names, so I asked if they could send that as well. We already had Giovanni's but Maria's parents would be new info.

Thanks again,
D.

[AngelaGrace56]

@Angela and @mmogno

I wanted to shared that after all the detective work the commune finally responded today with some of the missing answers!

#1. As you had thought they confirmed that Giovanni and Maria were married before the online documents, in May of 1870. They couldn't issue a formal marriage certificate as it pre-dates the civil registry, which for them is 1871. They did however issue a document confirming they were born there, their birthdates and the date of marriage the commune has recorded.

#2 The birth date of Giovanni matches what was found in the military database 11/11/1848

#3 As you had thought there may have been an earlier child (first born), and they confirmed Angela was born in 1871. They indicated, (if google translated this correctly ""Nel foglio 248 era inserita come figlia anche Sartore Angela (22/03/1871)" they found it on card. I didn't see it in the 1871 registry, but I was able to locate her marriage in 1901.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

#4. They sent me the death extracts so I have death dates etc, but not the information from the registry to show the parents names, so I asked if they could send that as well. We already had Giovanni's but Maria's parents would be new info.

Thanks again,
D.

Hi Deigo

Thank you for the followup. It's always appreciated. I'm pleased that the town have replied to your letters and also sent you some records. The 1871 civil records start from September so that it is why we were unable to see Angela's record there. I'm glad you told us about Angela's "1891" marriage because I've checked the allegati and located a Church Certificate which confirms her date of birth, 22 March 1871, as the comune have said: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Edit to Add:
Luigi's Baptism Certificate is the next image, 275
Allegati begins here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Angela

[deigo1]

Thank you Angela, and I have no idea why I wrote 1901 vs 1891 on the marriage lol.

Overnight the commune did send the death records for Giovanni and Maria, everything lined up to what everyone had tracked down prior and translated on Giovanni (parents were indeed Bortolo and Maria Pesce). I've been looking at Maria's and if I'm reading it correctly I'm getting deceased Francesco and deceased Luigia Cusinato.

Assuming that is correct, these are the records I was looking for some translation help on as it appears that Francesco remarried, which is why it didn't list Luigia on his death record.

Luigia Cusinato 1877 #147 - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Francesco 1880 #7 (remarried) - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Francesco 1893 #32 - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Thank you!
D.

[AngelaGrace56]

Going great!!! Glad you are getting info from the Comune as well

The 1880 marriage record you have posted is just a copy that was sent in later, from the bride’s birth town, where the marriage took place. (Note that it was registered in the supplementary register.) Here is the original marriage record. They were married in September 1879 in Galliera Veneta. I don’t have time at the moment to translate the records, as I have a family commitment shortly, but can take a look much later today, and then chip away at the translations.

1879 Marriage No 12 : Francesca Andretta and Maddalena Martini
Galliera Veneta: 14 September 1879
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

1879 Pubblication No 12: Francesca Andretta and Maddalena Martini
(This includes mention of the Death Act of Luigia Cusinato
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

Deigo, you may be interested in reading the following forum entitled "What are entries after birth records." If you don't have time to read through it all, at least scroll down to what Carubia has to say about what appears in supplementary records, i.e. Part II, III, A, B etc and Diversi. It's really informative and will assist you further with your "sleuthing"!!!

https://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/ ... II#p269277

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

Thank you Angela, and I have no idea why I wrote 1901 vs 1891 on the marriage lol.

Overnight the commune did send the death records for Giovanni and Maria, everything lined up to what everyone had tracked down prior and translated on Giovanni (parents were indeed Bortolo and Maria Pesce). I've been looking at Maria's and if I'm reading it correctly I'm getting deceased Francesco and deceased Luigia Cusinato.

Assuming that is correct, these are the records I was looking for some translation help on as it appears that Francesco remarried, which is why it didn't list Luigia on his death record.

Luigia Cusinato 1877 #147 - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Francesco 1893 #32 - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Thank you!
D.

Death No 147: Luigia Cusinato of deceased Giovanni and deceased Maria Agostini

Registered San Martino di Lupari on 16 November 1877

Appearing were Antonio Antonello, son of the deceased Pietro, 50 yo, villico (tenant farmer), and Antonio Sartore, son of the deceased Bortolo Sartore, 26 yo, villico, who both resided in this town. They reported that at 12.04 this day, in the house in Campagna Alta, without number, Luigia Cusinato, died. She was 53 yo, a villica, born and residing this town, the daughter of the deceased Giovanni Cusinato and of the deceased Maria Agostini, a villica, who both lived in said town when living. Luigia was the wife of Francesco Andretta.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877


Death No 32: Francesco Andretta of deceased Bortolo and deceased Margherita Marangoni

Registered San Martino di Lupari 31 March 1893 and died the same day 3.06 pm in the house in Campagnalta, No 3. Francesco Andretta was 66 yo, a villico, born and residing this town, the son of the deceased Bortolo (Andretta), a villico, and of the deceased Margherita Marangoni, a villica, who had both lived their lives in this town. He was the husband of Maddalena Martini.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Angela