Laudani + Zappalá (was Wrong Names, Places + Surnames)

[suanj]

HI Essgee, great genealogy school!!I agree, and also that was married from 4 years in 1910 census.. to write in catholic church of Lawrence and to ask about marriage record.., how many catholic churchs was in Lawrence in 1906?and sure was an church near of residence, so with help of map John can locate it.. if John can find the marriage record the search will have an solution! and also baptim act of Veronica: in this act the priest normally write also relatives names and places... so for margaret...regards, suanj

[john_dominic]

after this search job, I think that it is better to search Maria Concetta record, as also Matteo brother and all siblings that you can find, included the sister that was married to Domenico DOGA (?) in Lawrence,( perhaps was married before in Pedara) ...
Rosa no was an sister perhaps cousin..
after that you find you can know more, but, always, for confirmation, is necessary to find marriage record ........ suanj

Ok, agreed.

[john_dominic]

OK............

1. There are seven FHL centers in Cook County, but do understand the problem. However, this is one where attention to detail is important.

Remember, even though it's in Cook County, if I work until 6pm, it's going to take me at least an hour to get to any suburb, so it's still a problem.

2. Almost every women in Italy bore the name Maria, and in a lot of instances, it was followed by another name. Your GGGrandmother could well have been Maria Concetta...but so could the others. Don't get hung up on and trying to use "uniqueness" of name to define who she is. You have been doing that and it has resulted in a false path.

Fair Enough

3. When you spoke of the name Veronica being so prevelant in Lawerence, you stumbled upon a clue to your backgroud. People from the same part of Italy tended to settle in the same areas in the new country. It provided people to sponsor them, but more so, extended family that made this foreign place a bit like home. When I was looking at the Lawerende records yesterday the name Alfio was in what appeared every household on every street...it was amazing. I had only seen the name once or twice before and here it was in every family. So yes, these people were from the same part of the world.

4. FACT and Fiction. You cannot use fiction to justify fact. Every story told to you must be treated like a nice story, but not as fact until you can verify it. It may have clues to lead you in the right direction, it might be all absolutely and catagorically true...but until you have the documents to support it, it isn't FACT. So you must go back to square one and fill in the blanks until you reach the place where you need to find documentation. Then you look for that in an attempt to find out the truth.

I know this and understand how there can be mistakes in data, fantasy, stories, etc

5. Start with the birth of your Grandmother...Where was it? When was it? name of the Parents?, ect. Then to Veronica...where was she born, when, name of parents on the birth records, etc. The back another generation. I come from Massachusetts. I have not attempted to access records from Boston...but I never had any trouble at the town hall getting records back to before 1900...but you have to have the date...fairly accurate, to get the record. You can start with Veronica's death record...that should be readily available. Obituaries might contain names of friends and family you are unaware of that can help in your search.

This is a little ridiculous. My G-Grandmother Veronica was alive when I was alive. I went to her 89th or 90th Birthday in the 1990s, for God's sake. I know based on my Grandmother's birth Certifcate where she was born in, in Chicago as well from multiple verbal sources. I've even been where the house was.

I have a photo of Veronica at that house in Chicago, standing in front:

[align=center][/align]

I have seen Veronica's death certificate, indicating she was from Lawrence, MA.

I have a photo of Carmelo holding my grandmother as a baby in Milwaukee:

[align=center][/align]

I have all of this data already!

6. Where did Veronica marry? What state and When? Where was she in 1920? Do you have any idea? Where did Margaret end up? Did she marry? What was her married name? Are her children still living...can you contact them?

Veronica married Vincenzo Peri (aka Charles Vincent Peri) in Chicago, IL in 1926. Margaret ended up initially in Chicago, later to Marry Joesph Lucenti and move out to Kanakee, IL (2 hours South of Chicago) where the descendents of her family are today. I am already trying to get to her two living daughters through a half granduncle, for a photo of Concetta. So, I can just ask them some questions, although I doubt they know any more, since Veronica was the older one and my grandmother was close to her.

7. The story about her running away to marry Carmelo...why did she arrive with her brother? Why was it some time before they appear to have married? All this is not quite there...something is missing in the story that makes me think it might be true, it could be true, but nothing there to support it. What happened to Matteo? Did he return to Italy? Did he stay in Lawerence? Cannot find him in the census, but then it was very late last night. If you can find him, find the family of Rose Zappala you might find others that can help with the line.

This does seem odd. I have no idea the data surrounding this thing. She could have simply ran away from the family (although that makes little sense given her sister and brother going with her). As for Matteo, maybe he went back? Lawrence, MA was AWFUL at the time (as I mentioned) and i'm fairly sure I wouldn't stay around if I was him. I've seen no census records of him, but as I said about the textile mills, he could have been part of the 36% who died by the time they were 25, given those conditions.

As for Rosa, I have no idea what happened to her, other than she did get married in Massachusetts and stayed there for the rest of her life.

8. You can write and ask the commune to check the records. However, I would want to be absolutely sure I was asking the right commune that question before I asked. You need to verify where she was born before you write. It allows you to request more accurately. This is where family stories might be telling the tale correctly. Go back and analyze what has been told to you and try and find the truth in it...sometimes it is right up front and sometimes it is hiding just behind something else. Almost all the stories have some truth. But many stories have many story tellers and the embellishments go on. That is Suanj pointed out that if indeed the 1910 census is the point of origin, the one fact you can prove by the documents, then start there....events that occur closer to the date they are listed tend to be the most accurate. 20 years later, there is variation in what someone remembers happened in 1910 and what actually did.

Well, the story was she came from Trecastagni. The immigration record says Pedara. You've seen the map, and they're smack next to each other. I've got two references to her age, so i'm pretty sure that I can check from 1885-1889 in both Trecastagni and Pedara from the commune for a M / Maria Zappala and something will come up.

Your quest is complicated by your personal time to spend on it, we understand that. We don't want to chastise you for it...only point out that if you can find the time, your own personal research of records might prove beneficial. And forget the language thing...I don't speak any foreign language...and my high school Latin is over 40 years ago. You can get a translation dictionary and read the records. It is hard to start with, but it becomes easier once you have the gist of it. And if you think she was born in the month of April of a specific year, it narrows it all down a bit. But it could be the April of the year before that date or the April of the year after.......one thing I have found is that the dates by year are invariably off....and they did seem to be a couple of years younger in the states then in Italy...particularly the women!!! So bear that in mind.

Ok, fair enough.

If you could tell us what happened to the family from 1910 to the birth of your grandmother...places, names, etc...that you know, maybe we can find something for you....We know there are gaps, but just the facts even if they are few. Then we will see if we can fill in the years. Also, how sure are you that the Carmelo in Illinois is your Carmelo? Is it just based upon date of birth alone or is there another clue?

Again, I have no idea the exact events from 1912-1920. I bugged my grandmother recently and she said they did move to Chicago together, but she seemed fuzzy on it, hence my angle on this. He did leave her for another woman in Milwaukee, and my grandmother knew this since she went up to visit him! Hell, the photo of her as a baby with him is in Milwaukee. The census record in Milwaukee matches up perfectly, so I have to say that sounds right.

Let us know and we shall see what is available. Remember Joe Friday in Dragnet?????( Of course you are probably very young and never heard of Dragnet while I am giving up my age for all to see) He always stated: "Just the facts, ma'm, just the facts." He could have been speaking about Genealogy!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, i've heard of dragnet, I even saw the terrible remake with Dan Ackroyd, so I know what you mean.

Cheers!

[john_dominic]

A. I do not work professionally on this. This is all on my free time, which doesn't interfere with my 60 hour work weeks.

B. I consistantly work until 5pm, usually up until 6pm or longer

C. My local history center has absolutely terrible hours and one cannot even get microfilm:

Some regular book libraries do carry LDS film if that helps any. A phone call to the main library wouldn't hurt just to find out which library has microfilm readers and which one has access to LDS film.

I've already checked into this and the Newberry Library in Chicago does do it. The only problem (again) is that they are only open until 6pm, M-F, although they've got a sizable amount of time on Saturdays (9-5) (which doesn't help because i'm usually either catching up on my sleep or have social obligations then, too).

Sorry they sent you the wrong Concetta. We've seen this happen to others as well...

suanj, thanks for the Venera given name verification, in my town "Veneranda" seemed to be common too. Wasn't sure what I was reading on the census record.

This info would be helpful especially with naming traditions... Carmelo's mother may have been a Venera... something to compare to in the future.

Me personally... it is somewhat frightening to see sooo much info go up in just one weekend... and just so fast on one post. I think this forum has a great team. We feed off eachothers information and that's why we can figure out things in just hours, days.... People have written before saying "I've researched this on my own for 2 years... you guy's figured it out in just days..."

I have to agree. The teamwork here was tremendous and I very much appreciate all of everyone's efforts. I'm glad I started archiving things here electronically, so that I could point to the sources pretty quick.

Many of the people who help out at this forum have invested many hours, days, years, all personal time, and money for subscriptions... (Ancestry.com) to help others out... becoming a good researcher didn't happen overnight either. In my opinion.... I would rather spend 3 hours+ a day on this forum instead of watching TV. Family research is really exciting and I can see better movies made out of these real life "stories"....

I agree with that too. I enjoy That's why I wish research sources were open in evenings, since I would rather go out and do some research a few days a week, than watch TV then and try to squeeze it in on a Saturday.

It is at times overwhelming to review everyone's opinion and research to follow everything through. At times it does help to step back, review, ask again... and sometimes start over again.

I know we have to drop this Alfio guy... and obviously more than one out there. I do take notes when I research... and I do know that an Alfio Zappala also had 2 sons, a Domenico and a Rosario... who also went to Laurence, Mass.

Oh, i've seen them too. Don't get me started with this.

Hopefully other Laudani - Zappala researchers will find this post and find all this helpful and maybe amusing.

One last thing, finally...

The script "Z" looks like an "F" but with a dash running through the middle... there are a number of "FAPPALA" mis-transcribed manifests out there....

Here is an example... see lines 8 + 9...

http://ellisisland.org/search/shipManif ... 4120020069
Check them out...

Wonderful. Will do.

mfjp

[Essgee]

Someone who can post the census.........

Chicago, Illinois, 1920 ED 34, page 17A Indexed under the name Lortanna

Lortanna, Concetta age 35, Widow, born Italy, arrived 1906, alien
----------, Maggie, age 7, born MA
----------, Veneta, age 13, born MA

Ward 1...........

John, do you have a listing for Charles Peri in the 1930 census? I cannot find it. If you know the Enumeration district and page number, I would like to check it out...........Thanks.

[john_dominic]

Someone who can post the census.........

Chicago, Illinois, 1920 ED 34, page 17A Indexed under the name Lortanna

Lortanna, Concetta age 35, Widow, born Italy, arrived 1906, alien
----------, Maggie, age 7, born MA
----------, Veneta, age 13, born MA

Ward 1...........

John, do you have a listing for Charles Peri in the 1930 census? I cannot find it. If you know the Enumeration district and page number, I would like to check it out...........Thanks.

OMG, you guys are good!

AS for Charles Vincent Peri (born Vincenzo) being found in the census, I would be surprised to find it.

Again, your methods seem to be better than mine, but i've found zero records of him becoming a citizen, being involved in any census, anything from his passenger manifest right until his death certificate. He seemed to be around some unsavory characters, rumor has it, and maybe he didn't want to be involved in any government handlings.

But, that's just a guess.

Additionally, it must be noted in my sorted family history that he was a raging alcholic and severly abusive, so Veronica actually divorced him (a rarity in the 1920s/1930s) and remarried a George Rotolo, moving out to the suburbs later on.

Bottom line: they may or may not be together in the 1930 Census IF he chose to be enumerated.

[john_dominic]

Someone who can post the census.........

Chicago, Illinois, 1920 ED 34, page 17A Indexed under the name Lortanna

Lortanna, Concetta age 35, Widow, born Italy, arrived 1906, alien
----------, Maggie, age 7, born MA
----------, Veneta, age 13, born MA

Ward 1...........

John, do you have a listing for Charles Peri in the 1930 census? I cannot find it. If you know the Enumeration district and page number, I would like to check it out...........Thanks.

BTW, this is what you are looking for:

1920 US Federal Census



How probable do you guys consider this to be the correct person, considering the "Widow" status and the fact that Verona was born in NY in the record? (I know Census Takers can be notoriously inaccurrate)

[Essgee]

No Guarantee here, John........

But if you think divorce was hard in the late 20's early 30's, it was more difficult in 1912 or so........listed as widow is only a "little lie" and less of a bad mark.

Veneta being born in NY.....could be an error. But here it states that Margaret was born in Illinois......this is a record you can access in Illinois and might be the way to go. See who it lists as parents........

Also.....who supported this family....Concetta is listed as not working? Did she get a divorce and he paid child support? There must be divorce papers and they are most likely in Ill.

The second wife did not arrive until 1915 so maybe he did not feel the need to divorce prior...I do not know. However, back then, you had to live apart for a very specified period of time...and there would be court papers....no no-fault divorce. So if they got divorced there are court papers for sure. In 1930 census, it states she was married at 16.......maybe she was married before as well? Not sure...but there is about a 7-10 year period for the divorce to be finalized.

You might want to look at the Chicago City directories for the years starting about 1911 and see if you find where he is not listed......might be the year he left. Also could check and see if he is in the Milwaukee City directories before 1920....might narrow things down for you...where to look for documents.......

[john_dominic]

No Guarantee here, John........

But if you think divorce was hard in the late 20's early 30's, it was more difficult in 1912 or so........listed as widow is only a "little lie" and less of a bad mark.

Veneta being born in NY.....could be an error. But here it states that Margaret was born in Illinois......this is a record you can access in Illinois and might be the way to go. See who it lists as parents........

Also.....who supported this family....Concetta is listed as not working? Did she get a divorce and he paid child support? There must be divorce papers and they are most likely in Ill.

The second wife did not arrive until 1915 so maybe he did not feel the need to divorce prior...I do not know. However, back then, you had to live apart for a very specified period of time...and there would be court papers....no no-fault divorce. So if they got divorced there are court papers for sure. In 1930 census, it states she was married at 16.......maybe she was married before as well? Not sure...but there is about a 7-10 year period for the divorce to be finalized.

You might want to look at the Chicago City directories for the years starting about 1911 and see if you find where he is not listed......might be the year he left. Also could check and see if he is in the Milwaukee City directories before 1920....might narrow things down for you...where to look for documents.......

One quick question: What is she listed under in the 1930 Census?

[Essgee]

Not sure who you are referring to..........

Cannot find Concetta, Margaret or Victoria/Veneta/Venera in 1930...or Geroge Rotolo as well, or Peri.........

So far no luck...but there are others here who are great at cracking the census....so don't give up home.......

Was Margret married by 1930? If so, what is married surname. If not, where is she? Might be with her mother if she was still alive. I would try and find a church near that first ward in Chicago...it might be the place of the wedding of Victoria....might also be the place of the funeral for Concetta.....not sure what other paths to pursue just yet........

[suanj]

about Matteo... are this record.. the age is probable because Matteo bor in 1878 abt...
Name: MATTHEW ZAPPALA
Death Date: 27 October 1951
Death Place: Hartford, Hartford, Connecticut
Age: 72 Years
Birth Date: xxxYOB
Marital Status: Never Married
State File #: 15042
Residence: Hartford, Hartford, Connecticut
Gender: Male
Race: White
suanj

[john_dominic]

In 1930 census, it states she was married at 16.......maybe she was married before as well?

Is what you said.

So, what was her name listed (misspelled)as in the 1930 Census?

[Essgee]

John.....

This is Concettina, listed as the wife of Carmelo... In the 1930 census, in the married for the first time at what age column, it says age 16. But that would have been before 1915, which was listed as her arrival date in 1920 census...so, wondering if she married before getting here, and was she married to Carmelo or to someone else first. Just looking at all the data on the census in an attempt to see what is what.... Nothing definative, just trying to see what is what.

[john_dominic]

Hey,

I just want to thank everyone's help on collaborating in solving this.

I recently recieved some documents basically proving Carmelo Laudani was from Pedara and that his daughter (my great-grandmother) was born Venera, NOT Veronica. (it was confirmed secondarily when his mother was also named Venera, hence the pattern).

Also, Concetta was almost certainly Maria Giuseppa Concetta Zappala, and also from Pedara, although i'm still confirming that record.

I couldn't have done it without you!

[Jkriss]

Hello,
I am searching for living relatives in Catania. My father Joseph Paglia was born in Catania in 1924, his mother was Rosa Paglia (maiden name Alvares) born 1896, his father was Giovanni (John) Paglia born 1888. I believe Rosa had sisters named Concettina Zappala, Francescia Canpanelli and Josephine Tasca. My mother was Josephine Paglia (maiden name DiSilvestro) her fathers name was Paolo (Paul) DiSilvestro born in 1884 and her mother was Phillipa (maiden name Paglia) born in 1883 also both from Catania. My mother and father were first cousins. The last name of DiSilvestro may have been Silvestro before coming to America. My Great Grandfather was Guiseppe (Joseph) Paglia and his wife was Angela Paglia (maiden name Grasso). If anyone can make any connection, please contact me.
thanks so much,
Josie