Finding commune of S. Martino

[AngelaGrace56]

Death # 89: Maria Andretta

Registered S. Martino Di Lupari, 28 October 1926, and died the same day, 1 am, in the house in Campretto, No 106. She was 73 yo, a casalinga (domestic) born and residing in this town, the daughter of the deceased Francesco (Andretta), an agricoltore (farmer), and of the deceased Luigia Cusinato, a casalinga, who both lived in this town when living. Maria was the wife of Giovanni Sartore.

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

Here are the last two records:

Marriage No 12: Francesco Andretta and Maddalena Martini

Galliera Veneta: 14 September 1879

Appearing before the official were:

Groom: Francesco Andretta, 53 yo, villico, born and residing in S. Martino, the son of the deceased Bortolo (Andretta) and of the deceased Margherita Marangoni, who had both lived their life in S. Martino.

Bride: Maddalena Martini, 35 yo, contadina, born and living in Galliera Veneta, daughter of Domenico Martini residing in Galliera and of the deceased Angela Sgarbossa who resided in Galliera when living.

The hand written section at the bottom gives the dates that the banns were posted which will be included on the Pubblication Record that I’ve posted. The banns resulted in there being no opposition to the marriage taking place.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877


Marriage Pubblication No 12: Francesco Andretta (of Bartolo) and Maddalena Martini (of Domenico)

Galliera Veneta: 28 May 1879

Appearing before the official to declare their intention to marry and to request pubblication of the marriage banns were:

Prospective Groom: Francesco Andretta, 53 yo, contadino, residing S. Martino, son of the deceased Bortolo (Andretta), a contadino, who had resided in Galliera*** when living and of the deceased Margherita Marangoni, a contadina.

And also

Prospective Bride: Maddalena Martini, 35 yo, villica, residing in Galliera, daughter of Domenico (Martini) 66 yo, contadino, residing Galliera Veneta, and of Angela Sgarbossa, a contadina, residing Galliera Veneta, the groom was the widower of Luigia Cusinato, the bride was never married.

Right Column sets out when the banns were posted – the first on Sunday, 1 June 1879, the second on Sunday, 8 June 1879, (the second remained affixed to the door of the town hall until 12 June 1879).

The handwritten section at the base reports that amongst the supporting documents presented before the marriage could take place were the Birth Acts of each spouse and also the Death Record of Luigia Cusinato, previous wife of the groom, who died 16 November 1877.

***which differs from the Marriage Record?

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Angela

[deigo1]

Fantastic thank you so much Angela. That post was great thank you for sharing.

Do you see it often where Allegati is divided up between birth, death and marriage? In San Martino it just seems to have one set of Allegati, but I went back through some of the things we looked at for Gagglio Montano theirs is divided by the actual act. You had found the death in part 2 of one of the brides, so I went through the Allegati Morte last night and found the actual death certificate from Illinois that was sent back to the commune (that was really neat!)

Second question, is it common to see if a person gets married and/or die in the commune it gets stamped on the birth certificate?

I was looking back at some of the children that were found and translated previously from this post that had marriages in the commune to look at the Allegati and saw that some had not only the marriage stamp, but have a second stamp and I'm thinking it says morte and the date ? Here were a couple examples:

Antonio:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Bortolo:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Guiseppe:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Thanks as always!
D.

[AngelaGrace56]

Fantastic thank you so much Angela. That post was great thank you for sharing.

Do you see it often where Allegati is divided up between birth, death and marriage? In San Martino it just seems to have one set of Allegati, but I went back through some of the things we looked at for Gagglio Montano theirs is divided by the actual act. You had found the death in part 2 of one of the brides, so I went through the Allegati Morte last night and found the actual death certificate from Illinois that was sent back to the commune (that was really neat!)

Thanks as always!
D.

Glad you appreciated the post. It's an excellent one.

I’m not sure I’m understanding your question about Allegati here. Can you link me to the film and the records that you are querying please. I just had a quick look at Gaggio Montano marriage allegati and they look clearly set out to me but I haven’t time to look through each image so I'm probably not seeing what you are seeing. I’m seeing that each individual marriage “package”/“register”, which contains allegati (i.e. attachments) is easily recognisable because each marriage package begins with a cover page. e.g. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1947797
(This hasn’t always been the case in other allegati I have seen from other towns.)

You’ll notice that the cover page, includes the names of the spouses, the Marriage Act Number and also the number of documents included in the package/register, in this case it is only 5 documents (which are copies/extracts of the originals) as follows:

Baptism Record of the Groom (Angelo) Image 458
Baptism Record of the Bride (Maria Pedretti) Image 460
First Pubblication (Image 462)
Second Publication (Image 464)
Certificate verifying that the pubblications were affixed to the door, which resulted in there being no opposition to the marriage taking place.

This marriage package probably isn’t such a good example of the types of records that you may find in allegati, because it doesn’t have many attachments. The other types of records which are often included, if and when applicable, may be the death records of a father, a paternal grandfather, sometimes a mother’s death record, and where applicable, the death record of a previous spouse. Often there is a handwritten copy of the Marriage Record as well. Then there may be various other documents if/when they apply. If you take a look here, Erudita has covered the topic of Allegati (also known as Processetti) really well: https://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/ ... 90#p208703

Hope this helps. (BTW can you post the link to the death record from Illinois that you found amongst the death allegati. Great find!)

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

Second question, is it common to see if a person gets married and/or die in the commune it gets stamped on the birth certificate?


Thanks as always!
D.

Yes it can be, maybe more so with marriages, but yes with death records as well, which is so helpful, especially when the event happened post online civil records. (Don’t think though that because a record isn’t stamped with a marriage or a death, that the even’t never happened.) It’s interesting that the death annotations you’ve posted all took place in 1957.


Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

I was looking back at some of the children that were found and translated previously from this post that had marriages in the commune to look at the Allegati and saw that some had not only the marriage stamp, but have a second stamp and I'm thinking it says morte and the date ? Here were a couple examples:

Antonio:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Bortolo:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Guiseppe:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Thanks as always!
D.

Good spotting. (I think they were possibily missed because they are so low down in the record?)

Antonio Luigio Sartore died 27 August 1954 in the town of S. Martino Lupari, Act No 58/68? Part I
Annoted Padova 3 January? 1957

The writing isn’t super clear so hopefully someone else will verify.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877


Bortolo Domenico Sartore died on 23 September 1943, in the town of Chieri, Torino, Death Act No 116 Part I, annotated Padova on 3 January 1957.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877


This following is what I am reading, but I am not sure I’m interpreting it correctly, so I suggest you post it for translation on the translations forum, without my interpretation:

Giuseppe Sartore died on 1 October 1943 (or maybe this is an error and it was 1949? – I can’t read the words that relate to this date, or maybe the words are the name of the town in which he died and S. Martino di Lupari has been crossed out?) died in the Comune of S. Martino di Lupari. Then it says Act No 1949 N.9 Part II C, annotated Padova 3 January 1957.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Check my previous two posts here.

Angela

[deigo1]

Hi Angela,

This is the death act you had found:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1947797

In the Alleganti for death I found this:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1947797
This should link to 287 and the information goes to 293. 290 is the IL death record !!

For my question on the Alleganti, in Gagglio Montano I see they have it separate by each type of act birth, death and mostly marriage...different links. I saw your death act link above, then I went to Allegati (morti) 1919-1925 and found the "morti packet" for her death that corresponds through the link I posted above.
I attached a quick screen grab of it, see how in the boxed in area it lists by each type of act. I underlined some of the birth and death in red just to highlight them , but for San Martino it just says Alleganti (the other picture). It seems like Alleganti is more focused on marriage, but they also created them for birth and death? Perhaps the commune in Gagglio Montano was more advanced and divided the Alleganti up into each type vs one Alleganti for the year and all type of acts? I hope this makes sense. Edit: (the first pic is San Martino and pic 2 is of Gagglio Montano they attached in reverse order of what I was intending)

Thanks!
D.

[AngelaGrace56]

Hi Angela,

This is the death act you had found:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1947797

In the Alleganti for death I found this:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1947797
This should link to 287 and the information goes to 293. 290 is the IL death record !!

For my question on the Alleganti, in Gagglio Montano I see they have it separate by each type of act birth, death and mostly marriage...different links. I saw your death act link above, then I went to Allegati (morti) 1919-1925 and found the "morti packet" for her death that corresponds through the link I posted above.
I attached a quick screen grab of it, see how in the boxed in area it lists by each type of act. I underlined some of the birth and death in red just to highlight them , but for San Martino it just says Alleganti (the other picture). It seems like Alleganti is more focused on marriage, but they also created them for birth and death? Perhaps the commune in Gagglio Montano was more advanced and divided the Alleganti up into each type vs one Alleganti for the year and all type of acts? I hope this makes sense. Edit: (the first pic is San Martino and pic 2 is of Gagglio Montano they attached in reverse order of what I was intending)

Thanks!
D.

Thank you, Diego, for posting the two links and also the two screen shots. I now understand what you were saying.

Just a couple of things in response to your last post here:

1. Ok, so we’ve been searching two different provinces, in two different regions i.e. Padova (Veneto) and Bologna (Emilia-Romagna). It’s quite possibile that when the records were filmed in Padova, that for whatever reason, the birth allegati and death allegati were not filmed there. I’ve only had a quick look at various towns in Padova and there only seems to be Marriage Allegati that have been filmed, whereas the towns that I looked at in the province of Bologna, as you have observed, list/separate marriage allegati, death allegati, and birth allegati.

2. While Marriage Allegati, as I may have mentioned, were the supporting documents needed before a marriage could proceed, the Death and Birth Allegati mostly related to records that appeared in Part II etc of an annual register. As I understand it, when a written notification of a death was received from a hospital, another comune, another country etc the information was then copied into e.g. Part II of the register, as we’ve seen with Giuseppina Gualandi’s Death Record, and then the original notification was filed away in the relevant allegati file. The same would’ve happened with any written birth notifications sent in. Be aware that sometimes written notifications of events took weeks, months or even years to reach the town.

Angela

[deigo1]

Great information thank you Angela. To your point in the example we've been discussing, her death happened in 1920 in the US, but wasn't recorded until 1922 in Italy.

Thank you for looking at the death notations, I will repost in the translation forums. It almost seems like they went back through in 1957 and updated old records. I've looked at these records now many times and didn't notice that stamp at the bottom until I was documenting the marriage information.

*Side note I got a hint from Ancestry on Giuseppe Sartore....in two other family trees it shows this " Giuseppe SARTORE was born on October 20, 1880, in San Martino di Lupari, Padua, Italy, the son of Maria and Giovanni. He had three sons with Genoveffa BINDA. He died on October 1, 1943, in Thalwil, Zürich, Switzerland, at the age of 62.

Perhaps that last line ties out to the nuance you mentioned about it being crossed out as he died outside the commune?? The other information ties out to the notated marriage and I so far found two sons in going through the birth records (some of the children names were "private" in the ancestry tree)

Thanks!
D.

[AngelaGrace56]

*Side note I got a hint from Ancestry on Giuseppe Sartore....in two other family trees it shows this " Giuseppe SARTORE was born on October 20, 1880, in San Martino di Lupari, Padua, Italy, the son of Maria and Giovanni. He had three sons with Genoveffa BINDA. He died on October 1, 1943, in Thalwil, Zürich, Switzerland, at the age of 62.

Perhaps that last line ties out to the nuance you mentioned about it being crossed out as he died outside the commune?? The other information ties out to the notated marriage and I so far found two sons in going through the birth records (some of the children names were "private" in the ancestry tree)

Thanks!
D.

Yes!!! of course.!!! That's it. He died in Thalwil Svizzera i.e. Thalwil Switzerland. Things are always so much clearer in hindsight. I can't believe I didn't see it before. And now I'm understanding that he did die in 1943 and that the record was sent back to Italia in 1949 and that's where the transcription of the death notification was recorded. You can still repost the record just to be absolutely certain. I'd rather be absolutely sure.

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

... It’s quite possibile that when the records were filmed in Padova, that for whatever reason, the birth allegati and death allegati were not filmed there. I’ve only had a quick look at various towns in Padova and there only seems to be Marriage Allegati that have been filmed, whereas the towns that I looked at in the province of Bologna, as you have observed, list/separate marriage allegati, death allegati, and birth allegati.

Angela

I just want to correct something here, for anyone else who may be researching S. Martino. Now that I've gone through the complete section of film for, at least 1893 Allegati in S. Martino, I can confirm that for 1893, and most probably for other years as well, as Deigo1 has observed, the birth allegati and the death allegati were in fact also filmed along with the marriage allegati and they have all been placed together by year.

San Martino Lupari Records: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

I was looking back at some of the children that were found and translated previously from this post that had marriages in the commune to look at the Allegati and saw that some had not only the marriage stamp, but have a second stamp and I'm thinking it says morte and the date ? Here were a couple examples:

Antonio:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Bortolo:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Guiseppe:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Thanks as always!
D.

Good spotting. (I think they were possibily missed because they are so low down in the record?)

Antonio Luigio Sartore died 27 August 1954 in the town of S. Martino Lupari, Act No 58/68? Part I
Annoted Padova 3 January? 1957

The writing isn’t super clear so hopefully someone else will verify.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877


Bortolo Domenico Sartore died on 23 September 1943, in the town of Chieri, Torino, Death Act No 116 Part I, annotated Padova on 3 January 1957.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877


This following is what I am reading, but I am not sure I’m interpreting it correctly, so I suggest you post it for translation on the translations forum, without my interpretation:

Giuseppe Sartore died on 1 October 1943 (or maybe this is an error and it was 1949? – I can’t read the words that relate to this date, or maybe the words are the name of the town in which he died and S. Martino di Lupari has been crossed out?) died in the Comune of S. Martino di Lupari. Then it says Act No 1949 N.9 Part II C, annotated Padova 3 January 1957.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1946877

Check my previous two posts here.

Angela

*Side note I got a hint from Ancestry on Giuseppe Sartore....in two other family trees it shows this " Giuseppe SARTORE was born on October 20, 1880, in San Martino di Lupari, Padua, Italy, the son of Maria and Giovanni. He had three sons with Genoveffa BINDA. He died on October 1, 1943, in Thalwil, Zürich, Switzerland, at the age of 62.

Perhaps that last line ties out to the nuance you mentioned about it being crossed out as he died outside the commune?? The other information ties out to the notated marriage and I so far found two sons in going through the birth records (some of the children names were "private" in the ancestry tree)

Thanks!
D.

Yes!!! of course.!!! That's it. He died in Thalwil Svizzera i.e. Thalwil Switzerland. Things are always so much clearer in hindsight. I can't believe I didn't see it before. And now I'm understanding that he did die in 1943 and that the record was sent back to Italia in 1949 and that's where the transcription of the death notification was recorded. You can still repost the record just to be absolutely certain. I'd rather be absolutely sure.

Angela

For Future Reference: Related Thread: https://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/topic/52259

Angela

[Hamski]

Apologies for jumping n this thread, but it’s particularly relevant to my search.
The little I know about my birth family is that my mother was from San Martino - no reference to which San Martino unfortunately. My father was from Passiria which may be a reference to Passeier in South Tyrol.
Would anyone have any idea on where to start? I’m specifically trying to find birth records. Many thanks