AlliG, is it possible that your grandparents eloped? Someone posted this on the site I mentioned previously:
"If you want to check the elopement route, start with Cecil County, Maryland, especially the town of Elkton. No waiting period or documentation was required until 1938. . . .My parents eloped to Maryland exactly one month before my father entered the army. I could not find a marriage certificate anywhere in NY State for my parents. A genealogist suggested to look in Maryland and I found the document after more than a year of repeated searches in NY State and NY City."
May be worth a shot. Apparently, MD was the elopement capital in the early 20th century.
Citizenship Fail
Re: Citizenship Fail
Additional evidence of inconsistency--the following was posted in the FAQ section I mentioned earlier:
Consulate: Detroit
Date: Mar 2012
Member: palmerit
Line: GGF->GF-F
Accepted:
Missing GPs' marriage certificate. Consulate accepted "no record found" certificate (signed and sealed) from City of Buffalo. They also accepted GF's death certificate, which listed GM has spouse. Consular official noted "perhaps they were never officially married" and said that it was not required.
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Consulate: Philadelphia
Date: Oct 2013
Member: michaelvdifuccia
Line: [?->]GF or GM->?
Required:
In lieu of applicant's grandparent's marriage cert because they were never legally married, the consulate wanted an official copy of the US Census.
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At the very least, we can say that the consulates make the application process interesting.
Consulate: Detroit
Date: Mar 2012
Member: palmerit
Line: GGF->GF-F
Accepted:
Missing GPs' marriage certificate. Consulate accepted "no record found" certificate (signed and sealed) from City of Buffalo. They also accepted GF's death certificate, which listed GM has spouse. Consular official noted "perhaps they were never officially married" and said that it was not required.
------
Consulate: Philadelphia
Date: Oct 2013
Member: michaelvdifuccia
Line: [?->]GF or GM->?
Required:
In lieu of applicant's grandparent's marriage cert because they were never legally married, the consulate wanted an official copy of the US Census.
-------
At the very least, we can say that the consulates make the application process interesting.
Re: Citizenship Fail
You have provided no proof whatsoever that the cases above would not now be rejected by those consulates due to lack of proper documentation, namely a marriage certificate.
Re: Citizenship Fail
No one is trying to prove anything, jennebet.
In fact, these examples, as well as the many others that are listed on the website I mentioned, demonstrate that the consulates are totally inconsistent in their application of Italian citizenship law. Without consistency, no predictions can be made.
The consulates have demonstrated that they are a far cry from omniscient in terms of applying Italian citizenship requirements.
In fact, these examples, as well as the many others that are listed on the website I mentioned, demonstrate that the consulates are totally inconsistent in their application of Italian citizenship law. Without consistency, no predictions can be made.
The consulates have demonstrated that they are a far cry from omniscient in terms of applying Italian citizenship requirements.
Re: Citizenship Fail
Just as the United States does not have to offer and confer citizenship on everyone who thinks they're entitled to it, neither does Italy. Some consulates can and do use discretion or shall we call it, extensive vetting. You simply are not aware of all the circumstances involving individual cases and neither am I, particularly regarding what may have taken place in Italy with the immigrant or even with his/her family before immigration to the USA. The consulates would have access to all of this type of information. It's their call, not yours.
Re: Citizenship Fail
It's not your call either.
Consulates do not make the law; they follow it. At least that is what they are supposed to do. There is ample evidence to show they do not always do that, which is why people with the same circumstances are sometimes treated differently at different consulates, at different comuni, or through the courts.
The consulates are not privy to what has taken place in an immigrant's life any more than you and I are and certainly do not know more than his/her descendants. They only work with the documents they receive, and they have an obligation to review all pertinent documents to obtain an accurate picture. When they fail to do that, it is not "extreme vetting;" it is a failure to do their job.
I just love how people throw about the term "extensive vetting." That is the current code for "keep them out." Why does it not surprise me that you so readily use it.
Consulates do not make the law; they follow it. At least that is what they are supposed to do. There is ample evidence to show they do not always do that, which is why people with the same circumstances are sometimes treated differently at different consulates, at different comuni, or through the courts.
The consulates are not privy to what has taken place in an immigrant's life any more than you and I are and certainly do not know more than his/her descendants. They only work with the documents they receive, and they have an obligation to review all pertinent documents to obtain an accurate picture. When they fail to do that, it is not "extreme vetting;" it is a failure to do their job.
I just love how people throw about the term "extensive vetting." That is the current code for "keep them out." Why does it not surprise me that you so readily use it.
Re: Citizenship Fail
Lot's of interesting info. I suppose if they don't want an Italian speaker who studied at the Sapienza, I will just stay in NY. I have actually dug through the NYC municipal archives and reached out to churches where they lived in Manhattan and Brooklyn to no avail.
My father was the oldest of three children. All born in NY to these parents.
I am in the process of doing a statewide search, but could add NJ and MD to the list. It just didn't seem like this document would be the one to trip things up. I also don't think two immigrants would have the finances to truly elope, but hey! Who knows?
My father was the oldest of three children. All born in NY to these parents.
I am in the process of doing a statewide search, but could add NJ and MD to the list. It just didn't seem like this document would be the one to trip things up. I also don't think two immigrants would have the finances to truly elope, but hey! Who knows?
Re: Citizenship Fail
You mention a draft card, AlliG, and it seems that your grandparents were married during or toward the end of WWI. Did he serve in the military? If so, might he have married in the military? This is just a question I throw out because I know absolutely nothing about marriage and enlisted men or if this were even possible.
I do know that during war, many couples married rather quickly. My own parents eloped during WWII, traveling all the way to Texas to do so. This was not uncommon during the Second World War, but may have also happened during the First. If my parents were not alive to tell me their story, I would have searched only NY records and certainly would have found nothing.
This may not apply since a draft card does not necessarily mean he served, and you suspect they married after 1916, but the National Archives holds military records through 1916. This, from their site:
"Pension Applications and Pension Payment Records:
The National Archives also has pension applications and records of pension payments for veterans, their widows, and other heirs. The pension records in the National Archives Building in Washington, D.C. are based on service in the armed forces of the United States between 1775 and 1916. Pension application files usually provide the most genealogical information. These files often contain supporting documents such as: narratives of events during service, marriage certificates, birth records, death certificates, pages from family Bibles, family letters, depositions of witnesses, affidavits, discharge papers and other supporting papers."
I do know that during war, many couples married rather quickly. My own parents eloped during WWII, traveling all the way to Texas to do so. This was not uncommon during the Second World War, but may have also happened during the First. If my parents were not alive to tell me their story, I would have searched only NY records and certainly would have found nothing.
This may not apply since a draft card does not necessarily mean he served, and you suspect they married after 1916, but the National Archives holds military records through 1916. This, from their site:
"Pension Applications and Pension Payment Records:
The National Archives also has pension applications and records of pension payments for veterans, their widows, and other heirs. The pension records in the National Archives Building in Washington, D.C. are based on service in the armed forces of the United States between 1775 and 1916. Pension application files usually provide the most genealogical information. These files often contain supporting documents such as: narratives of events during service, marriage certificates, birth records, death certificates, pages from family Bibles, family letters, depositions of witnesses, affidavits, discharge papers and other supporting papers."
Re: Citizenship Fail
An incorrect assumption on your part. Italian authorities have vital information on nearly all Italians and their families who ever lived in Italy and no matter where they live now. When an American astronaut using her non-Italian married name was in the news for getting into trouble for some bizarre behavior regarding a romantic rival, her given name at birth, the name of her parents AND the name of her grand-parents and the town they were from in Italy was broadcast on Italian TV while in the USA, it was not even known that she was an Italian-American.mler wrote: 13 Mar 2017, 17:49
The consulates are not privy to what has taken place in an immigrant's life any more than you and I are and certainly do not know more than his/her descendants. They only work with the documents they receive, and they have an obligation to review all pertinent documents to obtain an accurate picture. When they fail to do that, it is not "extreme vetting;" it is a failure to do their job.
Re: Citizenship Fail
Good grief! Do you really believe this?
When you walk into the consulate with your paperwork, the people reviewing it know only the information you give them. They have no clue about what that immigrant or his family experienced in his life. The applicant, who has been doing extensive research to prepare for the meeting and who has heard the stories told by his/her family, is the actual expert.
My husband was living in the US for 30 years before the Italian consulate contacted him. They didn't know that he had been naturalized more than 20 years earlier and had no knowledge of his family, some who lived here even longer and most of whom had also been naturalized. They didn't know why he came here or how he came here, but they were searching for him because he never registered for the Italian draft. After 28 years of searching, they were finally able to find him and correct their very inaccurate information.
So some newsperson does research on a well-known Italian-American, and you translate this to mean that the consulate knows everything about every Italian family. They know absolutely nothing except what we give them. We do the research; they review it.
Remember, jennebet, I have gone through the process too. I saw firsthand how little they knew about my family. In fact, unless I do what I am legally required to do as an Italian citizen, they don't know much about me either. My son, who was a bit lax in reporting his address change when he lived for a while in Chicago, was kept on NY consulate register. They still don't know that he has a third child. He will probably update them soon.
When you walk into the consulate with your paperwork, the people reviewing it know only the information you give them. They have no clue about what that immigrant or his family experienced in his life. The applicant, who has been doing extensive research to prepare for the meeting and who has heard the stories told by his/her family, is the actual expert.
My husband was living in the US for 30 years before the Italian consulate contacted him. They didn't know that he had been naturalized more than 20 years earlier and had no knowledge of his family, some who lived here even longer and most of whom had also been naturalized. They didn't know why he came here or how he came here, but they were searching for him because he never registered for the Italian draft. After 28 years of searching, they were finally able to find him and correct their very inaccurate information.
So some newsperson does research on a well-known Italian-American, and you translate this to mean that the consulate knows everything about every Italian family. They know absolutely nothing except what we give them. We do the research; they review it.
Remember, jennebet, I have gone through the process too. I saw firsthand how little they knew about my family. In fact, unless I do what I am legally required to do as an Italian citizen, they don't know much about me either. My son, who was a bit lax in reporting his address change when he lived for a while in Chicago, was kept on NY consulate register. They still don't know that he has a third child. He will probably update them soon.
Re: Citizenship Fail
BTW, I think you're referring to Lisa Nowak (née Caputo). Easy to trace her family with the basic information on Wikipedia. They didn't have Wikipedia in the early 20th century.
Re: Citizenship Fail
I have lived in Italy nearly 20 years and I have it on good authority that all the information that is housed in quaint commune books is also gathered into a big data base available to any and all Italian authorities who have a need to know, which would and should include Italian diplomats/consular officials around the world.
By the way I didn't see information about Lisa Nowak nee Caputo on CNN or any other non-Italian network, and I get nearly all of them via satellite. The information about her and her parents and grand-parents who had immigrated to the USA from I believe, Molise, was on the local Italian news networks only -- and it appeared swiftly as breaking news within a few minutes that US stations were reporting it. In fact it shocked me -- but then I understood it -- because like I said, I have it on good authority. And why would you ever think that if the USA's responsibility is to keep Americans safe, Italy's responsibility is not the same for the Italian people?
By the way I didn't see information about Lisa Nowak nee Caputo on CNN or any other non-Italian network, and I get nearly all of them via satellite. The information about her and her parents and grand-parents who had immigrated to the USA from I believe, Molise, was on the local Italian news networks only -- and it appeared swiftly as breaking news within a few minutes that US stations were reporting it. In fact it shocked me -- but then I understood it -- because like I said, I have it on good authority. And why would you ever think that if the USA's responsibility is to keep Americans safe, Italy's responsibility is not the same for the Italian people?
Re: Citizenship Fail
Italians love gathering information on Italian-Americans in the news. Americans, not so much. But the information is readily available online.
I believe her grandfather. Aiello, emigrated in 1913. Why would Americans even care about her father, grandfather, etc.? The newspapers did care about what she did--rather crazy. Lots of that story in the news--television, newspapers, etc. It was quite a big deal that an astronaut would behave in such an outrageous manner. That her grandfather emigrated from Italy in 1913, was not a story here. Why would you think it should be?
I believe her grandfather. Aiello, emigrated in 1913. Why would Americans even care about her father, grandfather, etc.? The newspapers did care about what she did--rather crazy. Lots of that story in the news--television, newspapers, etc. It was quite a big deal that an astronaut would behave in such an outrageous manner. That her grandfather emigrated from Italy in 1913, was not a story here. Why would you think it should be?
Re: Citizenship Fail
For the record, Lisa Nowak was not a famous American. Nobody ever heard of her until she flipped out.
Re: Citizenship Fail
She was an astronaut who made the news in a big way--15 minutes of fame.
Negative publicity does seem to attract the curious.
Negative publicity does seem to attract the curious.
