When Did My Maternal Grandfather Become Norwegian?

[darkerhorse]

My maternal grandfather was always said to be Norwegian by the family. Both of his parents were born in Norway, and immigrated to the U.S. around 1879. He was born in the U.S.

He used to sprinkle in some Norwegian culture - words, food, etc. – and he really liked the TV show, I Remember Mama, about a Norwegian-American family in San Francisco. My mother clearly identified as half-Norwegian, but my grandfather never really said much about his family history to his grandchildren.

Through research, I’ve discovered that my grandfather’s paternal great-grandfather (same surname) was born in Denmark and moved to Norway around 1800 where he married a Norwegian woman. Their son (my grandfather’s grandfather) married a woman whose mother was born in Norway and whose father was born in Germany. And, their son (my grandfather’s father) married a Norwegian woman. So, my grandfather was mostly Norwegian (by marrying Norwegian women in Norway), but he was also part Danish and part German.

I know that geography was somewhat fluid in that region of the world, Denmark and Germany shared cultural heritage, and Norway was part of Denmark at one time, but my grandfather clearly identified himself as Norwegian, and never mentioned Denmark or Germany. Of course, he served in WWI, so maybe he knew but wouldn't say. We found a letter from his father about the original Dane who was a famous gardener. The letter didn't mention his Danish origin but it suggests he knew of it.

My question is how to describe my grandfather's family ancestry, especially the paternal line which follows his surname? Is that line Norwegian? Danish? Danish which became Norwegian? Danish/German/Norwegian? At what point did he become Norwegian?

How many generations do an immigrant's descendants have to live in a new country to become that ethnicity, if ever? Especially when they marry indigenous spouses?

[darkerhorse]

Also, can someone figure out my grandfather's percentages - Norwegian, Danish, and German?

Yogi Berra is supposed to have described the ethnic mix of someone as something like: half Italian, half Irish, and half German.

I'm looking for something more precise.

[MarcuccioV]

That's not an easy question to answer. I suppose it boils down to how much detail you want to present.

I think the most accurate would be your Danish/German/Norwegian example. The simplified answer would be Norwegian, as that's the major ethnicity based on the marriages, etc.

At least yours is simpler than my paternal side. Dutch surname, but the 2 predominant ethnicities are English & Scottish. A considerable bit of Welsh & German, and a peppering of Dutch, Irish and "mystery" Mediterranean European with minute traces of French & Scandinavian (Norwegian/Finnish).

My maternal side is an unknown combination of Italian, Sicilian, Greek, Turkish, Lebanese & Armenian with potentially small traces of Alpine French, N African & Romani.

I wouldn't even know where to start if I were doing the same thing...

[darkerhorse]

The surname line is of particular interest for the obvious reason.

I've been telling relatives that the surname is Danish in origin, not Norwegian, but, of course, that is subject to change as more family history is uncovered. The Danes probably came to Denmark from Germany!

I was thinking of something like, "Danish by way of Norway". But, at some point, the surname line becomes Norwegian, isn't it, given it arrived in Norway back in 1800?

Otherwise, wouldn't we all just be African or Edenic?

[MarcuccioV]

The surname line is of particular interest for the obvious reason.

I've been telling relatives that the surname is Danish in origin, not Norwegian, but, of course, that is subject to change as more family history is uncovered. The Danes probably came to Denmark from Germany!

I was thinking of something like, "Danish by way of Norway". But, at some point, the surname line becomes Norwegian, isn't it, given it arrived in Norway back in 1800?

Otherwise, wouldn't we all just be African or Edenic?

I can't argue with that. I think it's more based on your opinion of how to present it. More generically you could say Northern European/Scandinavian, but I think you'd want more detail than that. I'd say pick an approximate date range you want to use as a starting point, and then include those ethnicities that fall after that range.

Don't forget the further back you go, you get more random recombinations, so you could actually include some false positives that didn't cross generations...

[darkerhorse]

I think I'll just say that the surname line is Norwegian with an explanation.

What's the explanation?

It's not Norwegian.

It's so much easier on my paternal side. The surname is pure Sicilian - right down to the the town - as far back as records go.

I suspect the vast majority in this forum have the same experience on their Italian side(s), at least regionally.

[MarcuccioV]

I suspect the vast majority in this forum have the same experience on their Italian side(s), at least regionally.

Not so easy for me, I wish it was. 23&Me gives me a higher % regionality to Campania even than Lazio, where my grandparents (and all documentable generations) were from.

Next highest % is Lazio, followed by Abruzzo, Sicily and Puglia. Then you throw in the Mediterranean & W Asian/Middle Eastern & we're all over the place...

[darkerhorse]

What if you just go by family lore and the paper trail, setting DNA aside?

For example, just your mother's surname line. Isn't that thoroughbred by paper trail and family lore?

[darkerhorse]

I know overall there's a mix, but aren't some lines pure Italian?

In my case, all lines seem to be thoroughbred, in part, because the paternal grandparents were cousins from the same small hill town.

[MarcuccioV]

What if you just go by family lore and the paper trail, setting DNA aside?

For example, just your mother's surname line. Isn't that thoroughbred by paper trail and family lore?

Sadly, I can't recall any conversations of family origins except my uncle once said he thought we had some Basque. DNA says otherwise. I don't think Italians in general were as concerned about the details. They seemed content to just know they were Italian.

[MarcuccioV]

I know overall there's a mix, but aren't some lines pure Italian?

In my case, all lines seem to be thoroughbred, in part, because the paternal grandparents were cousins from the same small hill town.

DNA aside, all documented maternal family members are also from the same hill town.

I'm sure some of the lines are what you might call "pure" Italian, but which are is a mystery. And even then, there may be other things mixed in further back that didn't pass on.

It's all part of the discovery...