Looking for italian researcher in Catania

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barbeta
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Looking for italian researcher in Catania

Post by barbeta »

Hi everyone, I'm looking for a researcher in the Catania region to help me find my great-grandfather birth record (born 6-jan-1890, but I don't know where exactly in Catania).
Anyone here does that type of work? Or anyone has any recommendations?
thanks!
Federico, from Argentina
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suanj
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Re: Looking for italian researcher in Catania

Post by suanj »

Hi you can say the name of your ancestor? Maybe we can help here in the forum... many civil records are on line .. regards,
suanj
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barbeta
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Re: Looking for italian researcher in Catania

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suanj wrote: 17 Jul 2021, 08:10 Hi you can say the name of your ancestor? Maybe we can help here in the forum... many civil records are on line .. regards,
suanj
Hi Suanj, sure thing!
  • His name was Salvatore Barbagallo (when he migrated to Argentina, they registered him as "Salvador", wich is the spanish for "Salvatore")
  • Born in 1890 (+-1 year) in Catania (the marriage record doesn't say where in Catania).
  • Father: Andrea Barbagallo.
  • Mother: Rosa Rizzo
  • Later married and died in Argentina
I have the marriage and death record. Also, there's more data for the children (all of it accurate) and father/mother at his profile on Family Search: https://www.familysearch.org/tree/perso ... /G9Z2-4ZG

My main objective is to found:
  • Place/town of birth
  • Birth certificate/act or even church record
Any help would be really appreciated!
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Re: Looking for italian researcher in Catania

Post by barbeta »

I published the data also in the "Italian Genealogy" sub-forum to follow it up there

https://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/ ... logy/51197
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Re: Looking for italian researcher in Catania

Post by suanj »

Wel, I believe that your ancestor born in some of the Communes that currently are in Enna province, which were part of the province of Enna since 1927. Currently this province no longer exists but is part of a municipal consortium..
From what I see also by your genealogic tree... I believe that some discrepancy could be, because the coincidences are very rare.
Your ancestor was Salvatore BARBAGALLO. The his parent's names Andrea Barbagallo and Rosa Rizzo.
these 2 names of parents...
I don't know if I am wrong but by a search I cannot find on CEMLA Andrea Barbagallo arrival... Just a Andrea born around 1919.....
So it are some discrepancy or something went wrong...

A Salvatore Andrea BARBAGALLO was married to Rosa Domenica RIZZO. This couple had children... and the couple sometimes stated the own first name as just Salvatore on the birth records of children, sometimes just Andrea and Sometimes Salvatore Andrea. Ditto for Rosa Domenica,.. used indifferetly Rosa as a well Domenica or Rosa Domenica.
I no say that this couple could be the parents of your Salvatore. I say that this story in some way match with your story of ancestor...


On the marriage record on 1882 Salvatore was 24 old, farmer, born and domiciled in Troina son of late Giuseppe and of late Lucia Messina. Rosa Rizzo was 17 old, born and domiciled in Troina, daughter of Basilio and of Silvestra Stancanelli.
http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0

Children:
Giuseppe Barbagallo b. 09 Feb 1884 Troina ( parent's names: Salvatore Barbagallo and Rosa Rizzo)
http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... 0.jpg.html
Maria Barbagallo b. 25 Oct 1886 Troina (parent's names: Salvatore Andrea Barbagallo and Rosa Rizzo)
http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... 7.jpg.html
Lucia Barbagallo b. 06 May 1889 Troina (parent's names: Salvatore Barbagallo and Rosa Domenica Nizzo- right Rizzo)
http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... 3.jpg.html
Angelo Barbagallo b. 10 Dec 1891 Troina ( parent's names: Andrea Barbagallo and Domenica Rizzo)
http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... 1.jpg.html
Angela Barbagallo b. 11 Mar 1895 Troina (parent's names: Salvatore Barbagallo and Rosa Rizzo)
http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... 7.jpg.html

no a Salvatore child....

But something match...
Now... ...to clarify abt this my suggestion... and it is just a suggestion... it could be that your Salvatore first name was no Salvatore?


you can provide the arrival of YOUR salvatore as a well of his parents and Angela, his sister in your genealogic tree?
Regards,
suanj
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Re: Looking for italian researcher in Catania

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I don't understand why Rosa Rizzo abt the family that I found stated her given name as Rosa Domenica Rizzo... or Domenica Rizzo at birth she was just Rosa http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... 7.jpg.html born on 4 sep 1864...
The envious is like the cuckoo. Try to appropriate the merits of others. He never starts a difficult search, having no skills, but puts his egg in other's nest.

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Re: Looking for italian researcher in Catania

Post by suanj »

Ditto Salvatore Barbagallo he was just Salvatore... born on 31 Mar 1858...
http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0
I cannot find any Salvatore Andrea or just Andrea.. and because the ages and the home address matching as a wel the surname I believe that was just one and same couple.....
The envious is like the cuckoo. Try to appropriate the merits of others. He never starts a difficult search, having no skills, but puts his egg in other's nest.

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barbeta
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Re: Looking for italian researcher in Catania

Post by barbeta »

suanj wrote: 18 Jul 2021, 10:11 Wel, I believe that your ancestor born in some of the Communes that currently are in Enna province, which were part of the province of Enna since 1927. Currently this province no longer exists but is part of a municipal consortium..
From what I see also by your genealogic tree... I believe that some discrepancy could be, because the coincidences are very rare.
Your ancestor was Salvatore BARBAGALLO. The his parent's names Andrea Barbagallo and Rosa Rizzo.
these 2 names of parents...
I don't know if I am wrong but by a search I cannot find on CEMLA Andrea Barbagallo arrival... Just a Andrea born around 1919.....
So it are some discrepancy or something went wrong...

A Salvatore Andrea BARBAGALLO was married to Rosa Domenica RIZZO. This couple had children... and the couple sometimes stated the own first name as just Salvatore on the birth records of children, sometimes just Andrea and Sometimes Salvatore Andrea. Ditto for Rosa Domenica,.. used indifferetly Rosa as a well Domenica or Rosa Domenica.
I no say that this couple could be the parents of your Salvatore. I say that this story in some way match with your story of ancestor...


On the marriage record on 1882 Salvatore was 24 old, farmer, born and domiciled in Troina son of late Giuseppe and of late Lucia Messina. Rosa Rizzo was 17 old, born and domiciled in Troina, daughter of Basilio and of Silvestra Stancanelli.
http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0

Children:
Giuseppe Barbagallo b. 09 Feb 1884 Troina ( parent's names: Salvatore Barbagallo and Rosa Rizzo)
http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... 0.jpg.html
Maria Barbagallo b. 25 Oct 1886 Troina (parent's names: Salvatore Andrea Barbagallo and Rosa Rizzo)
http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... 7.jpg.html
Lucia Barbagallo b. 06 May 1889 Troina (parent's names: Salvatore Barbagallo and Rosa Domenica Nizzo- right Rizzo)
http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... 3.jpg.html
Angelo Barbagallo b. 10 Dec 1891 Troina ( parent's names: Andrea Barbagallo and Domenica Rizzo)
http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... 1.jpg.html
Angela Barbagallo b. 11 Mar 1895 Troina (parent's names: Salvatore Barbagallo and Rosa Rizzo)
http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... 7.jpg.html

no a Salvatore child....
But something match...

Suanj, first of all: THANK YOU for your time! I agree with your point of view that something seems out of place, but there's a lot also that matches. In special that those acts are from Troina and her wife is also from the same place (altough they married in Argentina). An interesting fact is that the Salvatore's sister, Angela BARBAGALLO, married Rosa's brother, Antonino CHIAVETTA (the marriage was done in Argentina). So with that we can assume that probable they knew from before arriving to Argentina (more on the Argentina arrival below)

Your comments really got me thinking about how reliable is the data that I'm using as a base for the search, so I spent the whole week digging into the acts that I have related to Salvatore BARBAGALLO (all of them from Argentina) to double check some things.
I've got:
  • Civil registry marriage act between Salvatore BARBAGALLO and Rosa CHIAVETTA. In this act the name is already "Salvador" (the spanish for Salvatore), with no other names and only states that both of them are from "Cattania". It has also both parents names.
    1.2 Salvador Barbagallo y Rosa Chiavetta - Acta de matrimonio.pdf
  • The birth certificate records for the 5 children of Salvatore BARBAGALLO and Rosa CHIAVETTA, all born in Argentina. In all of them, the name for the father is "Salvador", no other name stated, and there's no mention to town of origin in italy. Also the age stated is not accurate:
    • Rosa Barbagallo (1913-199?). Salvatore's age is 23, so year if birth is near 1890
    • Andres Barbagallo (1951-1934). Salvatore's age is 20, so year if birth is near 1893
    • Maria Angelica Barbagallo (1917-1919). Salvatore's age is 27, so year if birth is near 1890
    • Luis Barbagallo (1920-2003), my grand-father. Salvatore's age is 28, so year if birth is near 1892
    • Elsa Barbagallo (1928-????). Salvatore's age is 36, so year if birth is near 1893

suanj wrote: 18 Jul 2021, 10:11 Now... ...to clarify abt this my suggestion... and it is just a suggestion... it could be that your Salvatore first name was no Salvatore?
I think that at this point it's possible:
  • Maybe he had another first/second name and when he arrived to Argentina, they "deleted" that other name
  • Maybe in Italy he had a completely different name and when he arrived to Argentina he changed it to Salvatore
The only documents/acts I have are the ones from Argentina, and that's why I was sticking to the "Salvatore" only option
suanj wrote: 18 Jul 2021, 10:11 you can provide the arrival of YOUR salvatore as a well of his parents and Angela, his sister in your genealogic tree?
I don't have that data. I looked for it (and the same for relatives and trying mispellings on the surnames and also phonetics combinations) on the online CEMLA registry (they only have digitazed a small portion of the records) with no luck. So I guess that I'll have to try the offline records on my next visit to Argentina.

suanj wrote: 18 Jul 2021, 10:20 I don't understand why Rosa Rizzo abt the family that I found stated her given name as Rosa Domenica Rizzo... or Domenica Rizzo at birth she was just Rosa http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... 7.jpg.html born on 4 sep 1864...
suanj wrote: 18 Jul 2021, 10:26 Ditto Salvatore Barbagallo he was just Salvatore... born on 31 Mar 1858...
http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0
I cannot find any Salvatore Andrea or just Andrea.. and because the ages and the home address matching as a wel the surname I believe that was just one and same couple.....
My guess here is that both BARBAGALLO and RIZZO are very common surnames in the region, so it could be that those are different people, but also it's possible that from one record to other they only mentioned part of the name. Maybe one thing I could do to try to confirm/discard that theory is to try to find church records to compare them.

The other big option is that they were from other town on Enna or Catania, so I'll try looking on (by priority):
- Towns near Troina
- Towns that were in Catania by that time and now are in Enna
- Other towns
Do you think it makes sense?
Or any other tips on what criteria should I use?

At the same time, I'll try to begin a search for the church marriage record between Salvatore BARBAGALLO and Rosa CHIAVETTA in Buenos Aires, Argentina. Maybe there says something more about the town of origin and/or documents presented at that time. It's a long shot, because I don't know in wich church they married, but I know that they married 1 or 2 years before the civil marriage (Rosa was underage for the Argentinian law at that time, so the family story says they found a priest that was willing to marry them in order for them to "not live in sin")

(if I found something else I'll update this thread)

thanks!
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Re: Looking for italian researcher in Catania

Post by suanj »

The names are very popular in the area.. Howver by witness names I can say that Serafino Castano was born in Troina and Alfio Barbagallo was married to Ignazia Ragonese ( you will find some argentinian document on familysearch) and then his name was Alfredo. But really he was Alfio named, and I found a his son Leonardo born in Piedimonte Etneo, Catania, IT http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0
So seeming that to change the first name was a tradition.. Now was afio Barbagallo related to Salvatore Barbagallo? I no found any Salvatore Barbagallo son of Andrea and Rosa Rizzo in Piedimonte Etneo on 1886/1887/1888/1889/ 1890/1891/1892/1893 births.. so also this trace is no helpful.. I cannot say more ... best regards,
suanj
The envious is like the cuckoo. Try to appropriate the merits of others. He never starts a difficult search, having no skills, but puts his egg in other's nest.

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