Trying to Qualify for Italian Citizenship by Descent - Paternal Side

[rizzofamily]

Hello all,

I just recently learned that I may be eligible for Italian citizenship through descent on my paternal side. I have read quite a bit online already and I think I have a general grasp of what is required. I have a few questions though. I have found there a lot of services offering stuff but some of the websites are conflicting and I'm not sure who is legit and who just wants to make money off me.

Here is my situation:

- Great great grandfather & great great grandmother immigrated from Palermo Sicily in 1892 with eldest son and daughter and settled in Texas
- Great grandfather was born in Texas in 1904
- Great great grandfather died in 1913
- My research so far shows that GGGF and GGGM most likely never naturalized. I submitted a USCIS request and NARA request. NARA already came back saying they can't find them in the district court from 1906 onwards. They are not in the county district clerk records online. I did find the records of their eldest son and his naturalization docs from 1910/1915. 1900 Census has them listed as alien. 1910 Census has them listed as Pa "papers" with a small "Al" alien above that. Interestingly the 1920 Census (widow and eldest daughter) is showing naturalized in 1906. This conflicts with 1910, the record searches, and the eldest son applying alone in 1910.
- Great grandfather married a US born woman and had my grandfather in 1930s
- Grandfather married a US born woman and had my father in 1950s
- My father married a US born woman and had me in 1980s (female)

First question - My understanding is that I should qualify if I get letters stating that no naturalization records can be found for my great great grandfather from USCIS and NARA. This would be entirely paternal descent i.e. none of the women in between had an Italian ancestor. Is that a correct assumption?

Second question - I found microfilm images of great great grandmother's birth certificate and marriage certificate from the town of Caccamo Sicily on Family Search. I was not able to find great great grandfather's birth but I may be able to track it down at a Family Search center (his DOB was before the free index started). I'm assuming these images are not good enough and I need to somehow get a certified version of these documents from the town in Italy? Do I just write to them and ask for it or is there a reputable person who can help with this for a reasonable cost?

Third question is that my understanding is that I need to get certified copies of birth, marriage and death certificates and apostilles for all of the people born in the US in between including the women. Are the women's documents really required when everything was through the paternal side? This would be expensive but doable. The only issue is that my great grandparents were born around the time that they weren't always recording births on farms and I'm not sure how I will track down a birth certificate doc for them in Texas.

Last question is around the notarization. Do I only need to get the living men to notarize the Form 3 since they are the only ones who would have had an Italian descent citizenship to begin with? Or do the women also need to sign? My grandparents are still alive but they are elderly. The other issue is that my mother is institutionalized with severe mental incapacitation/illness, so it would be very difficult to get her signature notarized on a document.

Thank you all so much.. feel free to point me to any existing threads or links also.

[rizzofamily]

Hi all,

Here is a quick update - I was able to find evidence that my great grandparents had delayed birth certificates created and I can order those from Texas Vital Statistics.

I also wrote to the Italian consulate in Houston and asked them to clarify who all of my living relatives needs to sign and notarize Form 3. They wrote me back the following - "Form #3 is to be signed (and then notarized and legalized with Apostille) by your living ascendants in line for the citizenship".

I am still confused as to which of my living relatives would have been in line for citizenship. Would that only be my father and grandfather in this case since the chain of people back to my italian ancestor is completely paternal? I.e. my mother and grandmother do not have any Italian descendants that we know of unless they somehow acquired it by marrying the men?

[mler]

1. Generally, no-naturalization letters from USCIS and NARA and census confirmation is sufficient. In this case, however, there is a problem in that naturalization records were not kept before 1906. Your gggparents indeed may not have naturalized, but they arrived in the US early enough for a naturalization to realistically have taken place before that date. The consulate may find a post-1906 no-naturalization letter to be insufficient. That the eldest son naturalized in 1910 seems to imply that his father did not naturalize before that date. However, it does not provide proof, since his father could also have naturalized after his son reached the age of majority or between 1910 and 1912.

And this two-year period presents another problem because had he naturalized before the 1912 citizenship law was enacted, that would have ended citizenship for the entire family. The census indicates that your gggf was still an alien in 1910. This is helpful, especially since no naturalization records were found post-1906. However, census records are a secondary source, and it is likely the consulate will insist on pre-1906 documentation. Another complication is the indication on the 1920 census that both gggm and her daughter were naturalized in 1906. During that period, the wife was naturalized with her husband, so this may imply he did naturalize. Realistically, however, the 1920 census is not needed because your gggf died in 1913. Look to the 1915 census. I believe there is one.

You do not have sufficient proof of no-naturalization at this point, so you need to dig further. Your best bet is to check the state archives. The state should have pre-1906 naturalization information, and this, combined with USCIS and NARA records, should work.

I believe the Houston consulate is one of better consulates with which to deal, but be prepared for possible difficulty in this area if you cannot obtain documentation covering all periods.

2. If you have specific dates, you should be able to write to the comune directly to obtain the documents you require.

3. When I applied, no one asked for documents in the non-citizenship line. My understanding is that consulates are asking for these documents today. Check your consulate’s web site, but I think you probably will need them. That being said, missing documents from the non-citizenship line will likely be less of a problem.

4. You only need notarization for the living members in the citizenship line.

[mler]

Yes, just your father and grandfather.

[mler]

Apparently the 1915 census was a NY thing. If there was no Texas census taken in 1915, the consulate will want to see the 1920 census since that would be the first census after your gggf’s death.

If you can locate a naturalization record for your gggf post 1912, that would be the easiest path for you, so check state records carefully.

[rizzofamily]

Mier, thank you so much for your detailed replies.

That is great news that I only need to get the notarization from my father and grandfather.

As far as I can tell there was no census in Texas in 1915. I have 1900, 1910, 1920 and I just pulled up 1930. In 1930 my GGGM (widow) and her eldest daughter (born in Italy) are again listed as "Pa" first papers. So the 1920 census was the only one where they were listed as naturalized.

I wrote back to NARA and asked them for hints on where to search for pre-1906 records. They said that the pre-1906 records from the US District Court in Houston were destroyed but that some of the records may be found in Galveston? They wrote me another letter stating that the records could not be found at Galveston either.

I also wrote to the US District Clerk in Houston and asked if they have any other records besides what is on their website and if they can write a letter of nonexistence and/or point me in another direction.

I will also write to the Texas State Archive and see if there is any kind of naturalization search that they can do.

I am also working on an e-mail to the Comune at Caccamo to see what all is involved in requesting certified copies of documents from them.

[mler]

Based on the census records and the other information you’ve located, it seems reasonable to assume that your gggf never naturalized. However, do continue to search for official documentation.

You are applying based on very very old records, and it’s not too surprising that records more than a century old are incomplete. The consulates have total discretion on what documentation they deem to be sufficient in proving no naturalization, so the more information you can provided the better your chances are for success.

Best of luck.