D'Angelo brothers from Roccamorice - A mystery

[DD'Angelo]

I have a mystery that is proving difficult to solve. Perhaps someone here will have a good idea for figuring it out...

In Feb 1884, a man calling himself Antonio Clemente D'Angelo is on the island of Lipari (Messina), marrying a widow named Grazia Iacono. Antonio Clemente was also previously married, and according to the banns, his deceased wife was Concetta Monticelli who died in Napoli. No year of death is given for Concetta Monticelli and I cannot find the record. Antonio Clemente was 41 years old, and this age is confirmed by the birth record for Antonio Clemente D'Angelo in Roccamorice on 23 Nov 1842.

In Oct 1884, the son of this couple -- Antonio D'Angelo -- was born in Lipari. The father is absent, and instead of being in his forties, he is said to be 55 years old. This is no small discrepancy. (Note: documentation for the Lipari information can be found in a very old thread on these forums, https://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/ ... logy/26907.

Recently some new DNA connections came in, and showed a very strong connection to a D'Angelo from Napoli. Some research found that Antonio D'Angelo and Concetta Monticelli were the direct ancestors of these cousins (2nd cousins 1 generation removed, so a strong genetic link).

That would seem to support the marriage bann info from 1884. But here is where everything goes really crazy. The husband of Concetta Monticelli in Napoli was not Antonio Clemente. It was Antonio Donato, an older brother of A. Clemente. I found A. Donato's birth record in Roccamorice as well -- 2 May 1832. Which makes him 52 or so in 1884 -- much closer to that second age given when son Antonio is born.

So. I don't know what to think. It seems that either A. Clemente claimed that he was married to his brother's wife, or that A. Donato claimed to be his brother.

Both possibilities seem totally bizarre to me. Anybody have any thoughts?

[Tessa78]

You have seen this posting to your original thread???

Re: D'Angelo / Conte -- Roccamorice to Lipari to America

Post by gio123456 » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:17 am
Hello .... saw your posting ... you enticed me to respond ... my name is Gio' both my parents are/were from Roccamorice. Clemente Antonio D'Angelo b. 23 Nov 1842 Roccamorice, son of Nicola Antonio D'Angelo and Francesca Conte. Confirmed that Clemente Antonio D'Angelo had a brother Vincenzo Sante D'Angelo. He Clemente Antonio married Cesidia Elisabetta Menna (she passed away 1883 Roccamorice)on 08 Dec 1870, Chiesa Del Barone, Roccamorice. Second marriage to Grazia Iacono b. 18 Sept 1850 Lipari, Messina, Sicilia, they married 10 Mar 1884, Chiesa Del Barone, Roccamorice ... this is documented. Grazia Iacono, daughter of Salvatore Iacono and Giuseppa Lauricella. I have no idea how he ended up in Sicily. Contact me: ******@****.** .... I'll invite you to my family tree on ancestry.ca or ancestry.com (same tree ancestry.ca for Canadian cousins, ancestry.com for our American cousins). Cheers! Gio'

T.

[DD'Angelo]

Hi T -- Yes, I saw it. Gio has no more information than I have, it doesn't seem. And he definitely didn't know about the marriage / offspring in Napoli. I've written to ask him if he's learned anything further, but nothing so far.

[DD'Angelo]

More -- Gio almost certainly got HIS information (about both marriages) from the Roccamorice vitals. On A. Clemente's birth record is a paragraph / notation about his marriage to Cesidia Menna. And at the end of that year's book (marriages) is a separate entry about A. Clemente's marriage in Lipari.

It seems the records people in Lipari wrote to Roccamorice for confirmation of A. Clemente's age / d.o.b. for some reason, a few months before the marriage occurred (noted on the banns). Not sure if that's normal?

So taken altogether (Roccamorice's entry about Cesidia Menna as first wife and Lipari's banns naming Concetta Monticelli as deceased wife) I think that underscores this problem.

What on earth happened?

[Tessa78]

More -- Gio almost certainly got HIS information (about both marriages) from the Roccamorice vitals. On A. Clemente's birth record is a paragraph / notation about his marriage to Cesidia Menna. And at the end of that year's book (marriages) is a separate entry about A. Clemente's marriage in Lipari.

It seems the records people in Lipari wrote to Roccamorice for confirmation of A. Clemente's age / d.o.b. for some reason, a few months before the marriage occurred (noted on the banns). Not sure if that's normal?

So taken altogether (Roccamorice's entry about Cesidia Menna as first wife and Lipari's banns naming Concetta Monticelli as deceased wife) I think that underscores this problem.

What on earth happened?

Can you post these images? Specifically the notation "at the end of the book of marriages.

Here is the marriage in the comune of Serramonacesca of Clemente and Cesidia.
http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0

Here is birth on 1844 of Cesidia Menna in Serramonacesca.
Same notation of marriage in 1867, as on Clemente's birth act.
http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0

T.

[suanj]

I apologize if I do a research already done, but to understand it better you have to start over


By Marriage bann: Lipari 10 Feb 1884

GROOM: Clemente Antonio (NO Antonio Clemente but Clemente Antonio) D'Angiolo 41 old, born in Roccamorice, residing in Lipari, horse dealer, son of late Nicolantonio and of late Francesca CONTE, widow of Concetta MONTICELLI deceased in Napoli San Lorenzo district. (Clemente Antonio D'Angiolo provided the his birth certificate relayed from Roccamorice on 30 Nov 1883 and the death certificate of Concetta MONTICELLI)

BRIDE: Grazia IACONO, 33 old, born in Lipari, residing in Lipari, worker, daughter of Salvatore and of late Giuseppa LAURICELLA, widow of Giuseppe GIAQUINTO. The bride provided her Birth certificate and the Death certificate of Giuseppe GIAQUINTO deceased in Lipari on 20 Apr 1880.

SO these data are sure, because the spouses provided the birth certificates and the death certificates of previous spouse.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1887904

On the marriage bann s are more helpful infos..
------------------------------------------------------------
Well, but Concetta MONTICELLI maybe was no the first wife, because on 28 dec 1867, Clemente Antonio D'ANGELO ( D'Angelo right by Roccamorice, instead in Lipari the clerk wrote D'Angiolo) married to Cesidia Elisabetta MENNA in SERRAMONACESCA.. info on the Clemente Antonio D'Angelo Birth record
http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0

But this infos could be right? Sometimes, rarely, but happened that in old time, a clerk transcribed the marriage date on the birth certificate of a wrong person with a similar name of real groom.
So needs to try the marriage bann in Serramonacesca and here:

SERRAMONACESCA 24 Nov 1867 The marriage date was 28 Dec 1867 in Serramonacesca

GROOM: Clemente Antonio D'ANGELO single, 25 old, farmer, born and residing in Roccamorice, son of late Nicolantonio and of late Francesca CONTE.

BRIDE: Cesidia Elisabetta MENNA 23 old, farmer, born and residing in Serramonacesca daughter of late Luigi and of late Chiara D'AMARIO.
The groom provided his Birth certificate relayed in Roccamorice where is certified that he was born on 23 Nov 1842. The bride provided her Birth certificate, relayed from Serramonacesca where is certified that she was born on 9 May 1844.
SO NO DOUBTS abt the first marriage. http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... 0.jpg.html

When died Cesidia Elisabetta MENNA?
This info is wrong

He Clemente Antonio married Cesidia Elisabetta Menna (she passed away 1883 Roccamorice)on 08 Dec 1870, Chiesa Del Barone, Roccamorice.

because on 1883 no Death record abt Cesidia Elisabetta MENNA in Roccamorice
He Clemente Antonio married Cesidia Elisabetta Menna (she passed away 1883 Roccamorice)on 08 Dec 1870, Chiesa Del Barone, Roccamorice.


Clemente Antonio D'ANGELO:
1th marriage Cesidia Elisabetta Menna in Serramonacesca 28 dec 1867.
2th marriage Concetta MONTICELLI where?
3th marriage Grazia IACONO in Lipari

The clerk in LIPARI would never have accepted a death certificate of Concetta Monticelli if the husband's name had not been well specified. Unless they falsified it.


abt

That would seem to support the marriage bann info from 1884. But here is where everything goes really crazy. The husband of Concetta Monticelli in Napoli was not Antonio Clemente. It was Antonio Donato, an older brother of A. Clemente. I found A. Donato's birth record in Roccamorice as well -- 2 May 1832. Which makes him 52 or so in 1884 -- much closer to that second age given when son Antonio is born.

The name is Donato Antonio D'ANGELO, but you think that he was married to Concetta Monticelli? Or you found the marriage of Concetta Monticelli and her Death record?

On the Donato Antonio D'ANGELO Birth record no marriage note
http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0

Regards,
suanj

[suanj]

A Death of another child of Donato Antonio D'Angelo and Concetta Monticelli. The child was born in Palermo on 1859 and died in Napoli:
Vincenzo D' Angelo
Italy, Napoli, Civil Registration (State Archive)
Name
Vincenzo D' Angelo
Event Type
Death
Event Date
02 Feb 1861
Event Place
Quartiere San Ferdinando, Napoli, Napoli, Italy
Gender
Male
Age
2
Birth Year (Estimated)
1859
Birthplace
Palermo
Father's Name
Antonio D' Angelo
Mother's Name
Concetta Monticelli
Record Number
95

So it can be said that Clemente Antonio D'ANGELO provided a death certificate for a woman who was not his wife but his sister-in-law, to whom he had certainly made some corrections, so as to prove that he was a widower and could remarry. We must find the death record of Cesidia Elisabetta Menna, before 1884, otherwise we must think that it was probably bigamist.
Regards,
suanj

[DD'Angelo]

suanj and Tessa78 - THANK YOU for helping with this! What a mess...

suanj - I agree, starting over is always good. I have seen these records, but your experience gives a better interpretation. You said,

The clerk in LIPARI would never have accepted a death certificate of Concetta Monticelli if the husband's name had not been well specified. Unless they falsified it.

What if the death certificate of Concetta Monticelli had only said she was the wife of Antonio, and didn't include Donato?

And you said,

So it can be said that Clemente Antonio D'ANGELO provided a death certificate for a woman who was not his wife but his sister-in-law, to whom he had certainly made some corrections, so as to prove that he was a widower and could remarry. We must find the death record of Cesidia Elisabetta Menna, before 1884, otherwise we must think that it was probably bigamist.

Yes, we must find the death record for Cesidia Elisabetta Menna. So far, I've found nothing -- but I haven't found the death of either brother, either. Nor, for that matter, have I found the death of Concetta Monticelli. I wish the Lipari record included a year for that.

A question, though, about Roccamorice sending the birth info to Lipari: if Lipari only said that "we have a Clemente Antonio who said he was born in Roccamorice in 1841, please confirm", Roccamorice would not have known whether that was really Clemente A. there in Lipari, right? If Donato A. said he was Clemente and knew his brother's birth date, Roccamorice would still have confirmed Clemente's birth, yes?

Tessa / suanj -- here is the separate entry from Roccamorice (1884 Part II) regarding the letter from Lipari: http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0
My poor Italian reading might be missing something there, hopefully one of you will find something useful.

And finally -- there were a couple of other children of Donato Antonio D'Angelo and Concetta Monticelli. One of them was born in 1864 -- Filomeno Vincenzo D'Angelo. http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... 8.jpg.html

In it, Concetta is said to be from "Cellina", in Teramo. In the death record of the earlier child Vincenzo (1861), one of the reporting persons was named Filomeno Monticelli -- also from "Cellino". He was 24 years old. I think he is probably a brother to Concetta. Are there records for Cellino Attanasio somewhere online? I can't find anything, but it's the only "Cellino" I see in Teramo, and maybe there is further information on Concetta's records.

Daryl

[suanj]

Hi, happy to help!
The clerk in LIPARI would never have accepted a death certificate of Concetta Monticelli if the husband's name had not been well specified. Unless they falsified it.
What if the death certificate of Concetta Monticelli had only said she was the wife of Antonio, and didn't include Donato?

The clerk in LIPARI would never have accepted a death certificate of Concetta Monticelli if the husband's name had not been well specified. Unless they falsified it.

What if the death certificate of Concetta Monticelli had only said she was the wife of Antonio, and didn't include Donato?

Daryl,
in Italy the given names can be with comma or without comma. The comma is important.
Please to understand:
if the given names was:
CLEMENTE, ANTONIO ( to see the comma between Clemente and Antonio) on the Birth record, the first name was ONLY CLEMENTE and Antonio no important, just a given name put for various reasons, familiar, personal, reverential, devotional etc so the signature of this person must be Clemente D'Angelo and is the only legal signature only legal name!

INSTEAD, if on the Birth record the given names are wrote so:
CLEMENTE ANTONIO, without the comma the legal name is Clemente Antonio D'Angelo and any signature any document, must be filled by full name Clemente Antonio D'Angelo!!
CLEMENTE ANTONIO is like CLEMENTEANTONIO ok?

SO or the Lipari clerk accepted a death certificate of Concetta Monticelli, falsified, that is, canceled Donato and written Clemente on the erasure, or accepted a death certificate (which he later included in the volume of attachments to the marriage records) of Clemente's sister-in-law, because he allowed himself to be corrupted.
Practically he either cheated or got cheated.
Because on the death certificate of Concetta Monticelli the name of her husband had to be Donato Antonio!

But here we all know, that on the birth certificates the marriage is always reported at bottom, therefore on the birth certificate of Clemente Antonio issued by Roccamorice, his marriage with Cesidia Elisabetta Menna had to be wrote.

BY STRENGTH so must be, and therefore we can infer, that the marriage was performed, with big problem, mystified with the agreement of the Lipari's clerk.

even if he had been deceived unknowingly from Concetta Monticelli's death certificate, he had the birth certificate of Clemente Antonio with an indication of marriage with Cesidia Elisabetta Menna. And he also had to alert himself that the marriage with Cesidia Elisabetta Menna was reported, yes, BUT not the marriage with Concetta Monticelli!


Daryl, abt that

Tessa / suanj -- here is the separate entry from Roccamorice (1884 Part II) regarding the letter from Lipari: http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0
My poor Italian reading might be missing something there, hopefully one of you will find something useful.

if you read, that Roccamorice clerk, he received "a letter" from the prosecutor of the Civil and Correctional Court of Chieti, NOT a certified copy, but a simple letter... asking the transcription of the marriage in Lipari.... transcription, and the Roccamorice clerk transcribed, but no annotated on the birth record of clemente Antonio. NO MENTION abt Concetta Monticelli!!!
So transcribed but no annotated.. vague..

Abt Cellino Attanasio you are right.. and on familysearch just these records are available https://www.familysearch.org/search/ima ... %3D1947829
and no helpful for our search...


more than that it cannot be found.
I believe that Grazia Iacono requested the marriage transcription also in Roccamorice, maybe she has sniffed something.
It is unthinkable that:
- if, indeed, Cesidia Elisabetta MENNA had died (but certainly not in 1883 in Roccamorice: as you have seen there is not!) Clemente Antonio did not request the death certificate of his first wife, together with the request for his birth certificate same.

Why did he need to present the death certificate of his sister-in-law, making her pass for his wife, and thus proving to be a widower and being able to marry Grace Iacono?
Because he was probably not a widower.
Best regards,
suanj

[DD'Angelo]

It is wonderful to have this help, with both the records as well as the thinking.

suanj -- I am still working on some of this information, but I just found something REALLY odd and wanted to show you.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1887904

Edited to add the banns: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1887904

More soon, but this record changes everything so had to show you.

Daryl

[suanj]

Ok, on this record a daughter of Donato Antonio, Clorinda Filomena, 17 old, tailor, (born in Naples, Stella quarter) married in lipari. In Lipari lived also Donato Antonio ..

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1887904
and abt the bann https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1887904 the provided document, Birth certificate, and certificate of single status for both, and Concetta Monticelli Death certificate…. And the clerk…. Why no asked the single status certificate also for Clemente Antonio in Roccamorice?? strange… best,
suanj

[DD'Angelo]

It seems that there are a couple of discrepancies that I cannot explain.

1 - Donato Antonio D'Angelo and Concetta Monticelli had a daughter -- Clorinda Filomena -- who married in Lipari in 1884. Her father is there, and gives his consent because she is underage. Concetta Monticelli is deceased, and is named / documented at that time.

2 - Concetta Monticelli's death certificate is used again -- only 21 days later -- as the deceased wife of (supposedly) Clemente Antonio D'Angelo. But we know that is wrong. Research has shown that Concetta Monticelli was married to Donato Antonio D'Angelo.

NOTE: It seems that it was a different Lipari official who recorded the banns for Grazia Iacono and Clemente (?) Antonio than for Clorinda Filomena.

#1 above proves that Donato Antonio D'Angelo was in Lipari at the same time as a marriage occurred with Grazia Iacono. I cannot explain how the name Clemente Antonio became part of the marriage at all. But I am not convinced it was he who married Grazia Iacono.

Here's the biggest reason why:

Donato Antonio D'Angelo and Concetta Monticelli had another daughter -- Emilia -- who was born somewhere in Napoli around 1861. She married Edouardo Bruy, and they emigrated to the United States. Some of their descendants have tested their DNA, and those descendants show up as 2nd cousins 1 generation removed from my husband.

The only way this amount of shared DNA makes sense is if my husband's great-grandfather is the same person as those other descendants' great-great-grandfather (Donato Antonio). If we say that my husband's great-grandfather was Clemente Antonio, then we have to go up another whole generation to find the common ancestor: Clemente and Donato's father, Nicolantonio. They would then be 3rd cousins one generation removed, and there is too much shared DNA for that relationship to be right.

I hope this made sense.

[suanj]

There is no doubt that Clemente Antonio married Grazia Iacono. The marriage was however also transcribed in Roccamorice at the request of the Court Attorney ... and cannot be a forgery absolutely. Clemente Antonio had provided his birth certificate and was not a fake. AND IT WOULD HAVE NO MEANING, no sense if Donato Antonio married in Grazia Iacono but with the name of Clemente Antonio. NO, it's illogical and stupid.
The marriage was celebrated in Lipari and also transcribed in Roccamorice.

That Donato Antonio and Clemente Antonio lived in Lipari is not strange, they were horse sellers and went around buying and **SPAM** animals. Concetta Monticelli's death certificate was reused with the complicity of the clerk.
They are two Brothers, two different persons.. that by documents...

I'm not an expert on DNA and I don't understand much about it. But we must stick to the written documents and the written documents we have analyzed and it is as we have said and written.
Regards,
suanj

[DD'Angelo]

Thank you suanj. One last question: When the daughter of Donato Antonio D'Angelo and Concetta Monticelli -- Clorinda Filomena -- married, she presented her birth document, as well as her mother Concetta's death document. Her father Donato Antonio gave the permission for her to marry.

Concetta's death record could not have said Clemente Antonio, because otherwise how could the daughter of Donato used it? It must have said Donato Antonio, or just Antonio.

All the documents indicate that the D'Angelo brothers were illiterate, as was Grazia Iacono. Are you saying that the Lipari clerk would have been the person to fake Clemente's information? It must be this, but I cannot imagine a reason why they might have done so. Can you?

With gratitude,
Daryl

[DD'Angelo]

I was wrong. Only Grazia Iacono was illiterate. Her husband could sign his name, and Donato Antonio also could sign his name. This has been absolutely fascinating and I have learned a lot. Thank you very very much suanj, for your patience and your knowledge.

Here are the two signatures: To my eyes, they were written by the same person.

Clemente Antonio signature.jpg

Donato Antonio Signature.jpg