Italian Birth Documents

[datt]

Has anyone had or is having a similar genological experience?

It is storied there were several arrainged marriages back in Foggia as well........

Anyone in Italy or around the world know if it is common to have different sir names on birth registration papers in Foggia? For instance the surname a family currently has and another, different, italian name. Both names have quite different geneological etemologies but both are reasonbly common in the mezzogiorno and from their ring and familiar, yet very different, letter placement, have a similar origin i suspect. There is one name on the Certificato Di Nascita and its not the name that the family curently uses but has a similar word etemology and can be easily incorectly transcribed to the other very different yet very italian name that is currently used. So im trying to determine if this was an incorrect transcription that changed the family name to an alltogether different yet uniquely common Italian surname ....Or is this another surname from a 1.5x or 2x's great grandfatether in the family. Is or was it a common or even uncommon yet applied practice in Foggia to issue more than one surname on different birth documents? I am now seeking the baptisal document from the catholic church and the estratto per riassunto dell’anno di nascita from the "town clerk". Maybe one will have the explanation for this? I am aware immigration officials also incorectly transcribed many Italian names as well but this theory is not applicable here. Some of the brothers and sisters emmigrated a couple years after the grandfather yet their italian documents all show the alternate name as well. The two names appear to have unique and similar culture origins within Italian linguistics framework.

This is an italian family mystery!

[datt]

anyone have any knowledge about birth recordings of both paternal and maternal sunames in the mezzogiorno?????? With the stories of arrainged marriages in the family, (only one century ago mind u) it does'nt seem it would be extraordinary..... anyone have anything????

[PeterTimber]

Immigration officials did not alter peoples names on the ships manifests. The manifests were prepared abroad by the Shipping Agents in Italy (usually German or English clerks whio prepared the manifests since most immigrant ships were North German and White Star line(English) flag vessels. Errors on the manifest may have resulted from this source. The changes that tookplace in the USA usually took place during the normal social interaction of schools, jobs, and legal matters. Passports were not required by the USA and Italy only issued documents for internal use to keep track of obligatory army service members. =Peter=

[datt]

thank you for this information, everything helps!! The basic info here is good however there were two sets of family members that came over from italy in different years. both sets of immigrants names are different here. It doesnt seem likely that shipping agents would be responsible twice in different years for the same mistake. Also both names are bonifide Italian names from the mezzogiorno. On your second point it is true because the apostrophy was eventually omitted and the second capital letter made lower case and that took place in the united states as the early usa documents have an apostrophy and second capital letter. What i am learning is that surnames in Foggia and the greater Puglia region were somtimes double recorded with both matralineal names and the direct patralineal names used unfortunately sometimes only one per document. Matralineal name use in Italy is a tradition that goes back to pre christian mystery cultures on the Italian peninsula and still practiced a century ago in the mezzogiorno. Wow hows that for bringing ancient Italian tradition to the diner table here in the usa!!! I am in the process of otaining all birth records from the area and will let u know if i can confirm what Italian anthropology teaches. I hope this might help others who are stuck in the quest for jure sanguinis Italian citizenship. My line only goes back to my grandfather who was born in Foggia and just this far back is like pulling teeth....i surmize that the difficultieas and conflicting information has a lot to do with the culture differences. we forget that Italian mezzogiono culture is and certainly was not western culture by modern standards or even ancient standard for that matter..........good luck !!!!

[PeterTimber]

Southern Italy and in particular Puglia is heavily Greek in origin. The only western culture that existed was Celtic in the far north of europe, Etruscan in upper Italy and Phonecian on the east coat of Sicily and Italy (Napoli) until Greek expansion.

Puglia, after the Roman and Byzantine period was isolated by the (French)Norman occupation so much so that their are clear cultural distinctions in food, language (now dialect) and other social mores. I do not know what your research problems are but I feel sure that you can overcome them should you have time and resources to devote to that activity.

Insofar as the family surname coming to the USA are concerned, there are as many reasons as there are people and it could be that the first advised the second to adopt the spelling orthat the same preparer of documents(?) in their town of origin for departure committed the same error etc etc etc. I explained the process for Manifest preparation and the requirements for entry into the USA. =Peter=

[KarenChristino]

There were Celts in northern Italy as well, which we discovered when my dad's paternal DNA came back with matches to Celtic people in Ireland and Scotland with a different last name, along with someone named Brescia. His maternal DNA had some matches in Greece and Slovenia. Both were from southern Italy.

[PeterTimber]

Celts in Northern Italy have nothing to do with southern Italy and those Celts that showed up in your family DNA could very easily have been the return to Italy of slaves and the 10th legion withdrawn from England and holland to be reconstitued in Italy for service in the Jewish wars. Roman legions were by that time totally local celtic englishmen and irishmen who joined the Roman army during the 200 years of Roman occupation of the British Isles and led by Roman officers. These same Celtic roman army veterans too old for service in the middle east and incapacitated were given a Roman GI Bill of land in Abruzzo (where capital was named AQUILA after Roman Imperial eagle). In additon Roman conqudests prior to this brought many Celtic slaves from Germany and France to Italy fromearly on when Roman started their expansion into Northern Italy......

I hardly think your family DNA is indicative of anything more than what it is One DNA test which has no bearing on anything discussed here. =Peter=

[datt]

This is really far off topic. DNA testing has nothing to do with anything in this post and is unreliable at best. The history of the Italian peninsula and its peoples is vast. Every source seems biased in its information so I dont think a history lesson here is really appropriate. Im here, im Italian and this is happening now in real life not in a history book! Im looking for information on surname customs in Foggia.

[mler]

Is it at all possible that your ancestor was adopted and raised by another family? Perhaps both names were registered. In this thread:

http://italiangenealogy.com/Forums/view ... 18199.html

Frank notes that his grandmother had two maiden names--one from the family that raised her, the other her birth name.

[PeterTimber]

Datt on what basis can you say the historical record of Western Civilization is biased What is the source of this bias? =Peter=

[datt]

In the interest of discouraging what are perceived as "negative" stereotypes of Italians, a number of organizations (particularly in North America) prefer to foster their own notions of what constitutes "Italian" identity, and their ideas do not always reflect historical or sociological fact. The Italian monarchy, the Mafia, the Pact of Steel, and silver-haired Italian octogenarian widows dressed in black are just a few of the realities that the more outspoken members of such organizations would like to see banished from the Italian historical landscape. (The Americans who espouse these attitudes might benefit from a few weeks of banishment to rural Italy, where they could observe real Italian ethnology firsthand.) Don't let them banish genuine Italian culture from your family history project, and don't let them tell you who or what your Italian ancestors were!

As an Italian you should know that those in power allways bias the history and the religion to their benefit!!!!

As far as an adopted family. we can solidly trace back to the great grandfather. It is possible that an adopted family "detto" (a second name, usualy a nickname but sometimes a matrilineal surname that is a tradition based in pre christian Italian cultures, or another adopted surname of a favorite relative thru the years) was used as a second surname. It is also possible that one surname was used for the purpose of a baptismal name as the church in italy required babies names to include a reference to a saint.. (one of the surnames is an italian saint the other is a geographical reference). more information and documents are required on my part to prove or dissprove these "theories"

[PeterTimber]

datt why are you talking about negative stereotypes about Italians? What does that have to do with your family researches??

What is it we can do to assist you? =Peter=

[datt]

I think my posts have made quite clear how you can help. You asked about biased italian history and i gave u my response.....which makes quite clear how certain histories distort the real history and ethnology of the italian peninsula..... you dont seem to be very helpful by the way..... maybe someone else has more productive assistance with my research????

[PeterTimber]

sorry but you brought up differentiating cultures, (go back and re read) between Soujthern Italians and western culture. But no matter perhaps someone can meet your genealogy needs as you indicate. =Peter=