My Great Grandfathers and Grandfathers Birth Place

[Woodworth]

Hi Suanj
I have better sight this morning, I can get my Glasses on after yesterday's operation. I was wearing a solid eye patch.

Thanks for the information, It looks pretty convincing. I have some doubts about the age though, as you know its always different from one record to the other. The least age I can make him in 1904 is 33, taking in to account the 1891 census when he stated he was 19 and the marriage to Annie Taylor in 1892 when he said he was 22. As you are aware on the 1901 census he said he was 34, all very confusing.

Do you think there would be any other worthwhile records anywhere in connection with the trip, either in the United States or in Britain which might give us a lead on his place of birth. Neston is about 9 mile from Chester, so its a likely place that he might have a friend. Could there be any indication when he returned?

What do you think about my Great Grandmothers visa being obtained in Naples? Would everyone visiting the UK, from Abruzzo and Frosinone area or areas have to go to Naples to get a visa. Would there be any Archives of the visas in Italy. If the date is right she must have been really old by then, and it would be not long after the war had finished. Antonia had died in Oswestry in 1917 at an age between 75 and 79 according to the death certificate he was 79 and according to the church records he was 75.

George

[suanj]

Hi Suanj
I have better sight this morning, I can get my Glasses on after yesterday's operation. I was wearing a solid eye patch.

Thanks for the information, It looks pretty convincing. I have some doubts about the age though, as you know its always different from one record to the other. The least age I can make him in 1904 is 33, taking in to account the 1891 census when he stated he was 19 and the marriage to Annie Taylor in 1892 when he said he was 22. As you are aware on the 1901 census he said he was 34, all very confusing.

Do you think there would be any other worthwhile records anywhere in connection with the trip, either in the United States or in Britain which might give us a lead on his place of birth. Neston is about 9 mile from Chester, so its a likely place that he might have a friend. Could there be any indication when he returned?

What do you think about my Great Grandmothers visa being obtained in Naples? Would everyone visiting the UK, from Abruzzo and Frosinone area or areas have to go to Naples to get a visa. Would there be any Archives of the visas in Italy. If the date is right she must have been really old by then, and it would be not long after the war had finished. Antonia had died in Oswestry in 1917 at an age between 75 and 79 according to the death certificate he was 79 and according to the church records he was 75.

George

George, this Girolomo Gentile, is YOUR Girolomo Gentile, that I think and I am sure to 99,99%...
About the birthyear, for to travel in USA he sure had UK passport... in Chester could be some record about the Girolomo passport? I don't know the UK laws, but in Italy also in the Commons the italians passport, many times are registered also in Office Commons... and, because Girolomo sure had the passport, I think that sure in this passport will be the birthplace and the birthdate... You can inform about this passport...?
About Girolomo back in UK, I cannot know, because my first genealogy interest, obviously is about Italy records...
About Carmela mother... Napoli was reference town for many the people of south Italy... so no most helpful...
waiting your reply, regards, suanj

[Woodworth]

Hi Suanj,

Thanks for the new lead, I will get there some day

Yes, I am sure you are correct, there can't be two Girolomo Gentiles from Italy living in Chester in 1904.

The age seems to change all the time, so I shouldn't be taking too much notice of that.

There are some records of Passports in the National Archives, but I don't know how well documented they are. They are not on line so we can't search them on the internet because I have already tried. I will make some more inquiries to the Italian Embassy in Manchester where I tried before, they may have something as he went to America, I will also ask about my Great Grandmothers visa. Its a great pity my cousin can't find it. I now also understand that they had Antonio's Passport, but it went missing some years ago. I doubt if the ships passenger list, if available will reveal anything, but these are all avenues which I can look at.

Pity about My Great Grandmother I just hoped we would get a lead.

Best wishes, thanks for coming up with something again. When we seem to be stopped you come up with a new avenue.

George

[suanj]

Hi George, I hope that you can find something, also you can search in some notary Archive in Chester... perhaps Girolamo made an testament.. it is possible?
However we cannot know how many time are necessary for this search, and normally the best help for my idea, is to pray... God know all ... and he will guide us.... take care, suanj

[Woodworth]

Hi Suanj,

I have just been on to the Italian Embassy in Manchester. They were sympathetic, but didn't think they could help, but I will write to them again.

I have had a look in the Chester Archives and found nothing, but I will do another search. I don't think he left a will as he had nothing to leave, he was ill for a long time before his death and I remember my mother saying it took all the money for treatment.

Best wishes

George

[suanj]

Hi Suanj,

I have just been on to the Italian Embassy in Manchester. They were sympathetic, but didn't think they could help, but I will write to them again.

I have had a look in the Chester Archives and found nothing, but I will do another search. I don't think he left a will as he had nothing to leave, he was ill for a long time before his death and I remember my mother saying it took all the money for treatment.

Best wishes

George

Ok George I understand that Girolamo no house owner or similar, but Girolamo was for many time in hospital... you searched the Girolamo clinical folder... the 1929 no most far, perhaps are something... another trace is to find the baptism act of Girolamo children... only an suggestion, so... the Girolamo ship's manifest is very important because we can know if was the first travel or no, the profession and other passengers from Chester in travel with he...
any date in very important when we have very little infos...
About F. A. Halpin, I found only in Neston, can be he, don't can be he, but can be probable.... again my regards, suanj

[MichelleD]

George,
I am new to this forum and have been reading the dialog in your quest to find your grandfather's birthplace. Although in the US, I had the same dilemma. Just a couple questions - do you have the death certificate for him? That could supply at least parents' names and possibly town of birth. Secondly, take the record closest to the birth date, and use that as your guide. My gr grandfather could have been born anywhere between 1858 and 1872. I found his birth - 1857! Italians are notorious for not really caring how old they were.
My family is from the Basilicata region, and I know there were Gentile who were from Tursi, Matera (at the time, Potenza).
Good Luck!
Michelle

[Woodworth]

Suanj,

I have someone in Chester who might be able to look at the records better than me so I will contact her. I will see what I can find out about the ship and if there are any records. I will certainly ask about the Hospital records although they may not have been kept, I know the hospital has been demolished, because I was born there.

I will get a letter off to the Italian Embassy in Manchester just in case there are any records.

Best wishes

George.

[suanj]

Hi George,
this is an good new.. the important is that the search continue... but you ask also in the church in Chester or Dewsbury the photocopy from original baptism acts about Eleanor, Frances, Rose children.. all that you can find.. In Italy many times in baptism act are the birthplace if the relatives of child no borns in same town of child.. George, now that we know that Picinisco was only an proverb in the family and no birthplace, we must start the search as we know nothing, "ex novo" totally... regards, suanj

[Woodworth]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for coming back to me. As you can see its a difficult problem even for experiences Genealogist like Suanj who has spent some considerable time helping me.

I have a lot of information on him, children's birth certificates, marriage certificates and death certificates, unfortunately none of them give any indication of place of birth. I have his fathers name Antonio which confirmed on his death certificate, but again no place of birth.

As you say ages vary on all the documents, the two that seem realistic are the 1891 census which Suanj found, he was then 19 and accompanied by his father living in Dewsbury, England the other information was when he married his first wife in 1892 as John Taylor, he then said he was 22 that would mean that he was born between 1870 and 1872. later on in the 1901 census he said he was 34 that would mean that he was born 1867, and so it goes on.

Good luck with all you searches and thanks for the comments and suggestions..

[suanj]

Now we know that this Frank A Halpin friend of Girolamo is this same in Phila, because are this record in 1910:

Frank A Halpin 23 England Philadelphia, Philadelphia Boarder Relation Head of Household Charles W Valentine

no more infos until this moment in 1920, so is possible that back in UK.. regards, suanj

[Woodworth]

Hi Suanj,

Someone found the following information on the 1891 and 1901 census for me I couldn't access them, possibly putting the wrong information in. Frank A Halpin looks a bit young for there to be a relationship, he would be only 17 in 1904, but whatever the links they are definite and stem from Chester as you said. Girolomo was probably working as a Musician around the public houses
The Cross, Neston

Thomas Halpin Head age 31 Plumber and Publican born Liverpool Lancs
Jane wife age 28 born Liverpool
Frank A son age 5 born Neston Cheshire


RG12/2871 Wirral Neston Folio 144 Page 2

1901 census

45 Frodsham St Chester Cheshire

Thomas Halpin, Head age 42 Innkeeper(Pub) born Liverpool, Lancashire
Jane D Halpin,wife age 39 born Liverpool, Lancashire
Frank A Halpin,son age 14 born Neston, Cheshire
John L Halpin,son age 9 born Neston, Cheshire

RG13/3373 Chester Folio 25 Page 4

I haven't found any more about the S.S. Haverford, although there is a web site on the ship but there are no manifests. I believe Ancestry. com has the information but I do not have access.

George

[mfjp]

Hi George,

What kind of musicians were they? Can you tell us what kind of instruments they played?

I found a couple of Gentile brothers - Italian born - last residence: England, coming to America.

mfjp

[Woodworth]

Hi mfjp,

All as I know he played the organ, he wasn't just an organ grinder, although he might have done that, he was also a piano tuner and used to tune and repair the large Fair Ground organs for Pat Colins.

George

[Woodworth]

Hi Suanj,

I have e mailed you the ships manifest, can you confirm you have received it. It doesn't tell us where he was from in italy, but it has a lot of other information on it I can't read. Have to put it into another program to make it more readable.

George