Cannot decipher the profession
Re: Cannot decipher the profession
I didnt really look at the details of birth record, yet, thank you for all the clarifications.
Re: Cannot decipher the profession
Erudita,
Regarding Celeste Moccia, the NYC death certificate (1910) clearly states her Mother's maiden name as Celeste SPENE, I was hoping this was the Celeste Moccia Im looking for, however this is a very far difference in mother's name from Russo, but most of the other information matches, age 70, widowed, arrival NYC circa 1906, father Pasquale.
It states she lived at 165, Mott Street, however there is no such named person at that address in the 1910 US Census
Additionally, I was thinking maybe her father remarried to a SPENE, however I do not find a Pasquale Moccia marriage to a SPENE in Afragola records....
There are several SPENES in US, but no other indexed record showing for Celeste Spene
I do see Italian names such as Sepe, and Sense, but I am not yet sure how common is the name SPENE in Italy in general
Regarding Celeste Moccia, the NYC death certificate (1910) clearly states her Mother's maiden name as Celeste SPENE, I was hoping this was the Celeste Moccia Im looking for, however this is a very far difference in mother's name from Russo, but most of the other information matches, age 70, widowed, arrival NYC circa 1906, father Pasquale.
It states she lived at 165, Mott Street, however there is no such named person at that address in the 1910 US Census
Additionally, I was thinking maybe her father remarried to a SPENE, however I do not find a Pasquale Moccia marriage to a SPENE in Afragola records....
There are several SPENES in US, but no other indexed record showing for Celeste Spene
I do see Italian names such as Sepe, and Sense, but I am not yet sure how common is the name SPENE in Italy in general
Re: Cannot decipher the profession
about the death record-
Is there an informant's name on it? that could also be helpful info in determining if the record is for your ancestor. I personally don't find that the surname of the mother in the record to be way off that disturbing, as I have a number of NYC records for ancestors in which the info given by the declarant for the deceased's mother's surname is way off from what I found in the Italian records. I know I have the correct records though, as other info matches what I know from other records. The problem with the 1910 census is that your Celeste simply may not have been enumerated in that census. I gather though that none of the other surnames you see in the 1910 census at the address listed in the death record are Afragola surnames. I haven't had a chance to search for that address in the 1910, and you are more familiar with the surnames from the town than I am. Maybe what you need to do is try to somehow research the Celeste Moccia in the death record in an effort to eliminate the record as belonging to your ancestor. If you can't prove the record belongs to your ancestor, then maybe you need to disprove it, if that makes sense.
about the surname-I have found the surname spelled Spegne currently in the province of Ancona mostly, but also in the Province of Pesaro and Urbino. The surname Spene appears to be Sicilian and is currently found in the town of Gela in the Sicilian Province of Caltanissetta. You've been through the indices of the Afragola records, so I gather the surname never appears there even in a variant spelling form.
I'm sorry I'm not being that helpful concerning this. I really don't know what else to tell you. Maybe some other volunteer on the forum has some ideas I haven't considered.
Erudita
Is there an informant's name on it? that could also be helpful info in determining if the record is for your ancestor. I personally don't find that the surname of the mother in the record to be way off that disturbing, as I have a number of NYC records for ancestors in which the info given by the declarant for the deceased's mother's surname is way off from what I found in the Italian records. I know I have the correct records though, as other info matches what I know from other records. The problem with the 1910 census is that your Celeste simply may not have been enumerated in that census. I gather though that none of the other surnames you see in the 1910 census at the address listed in the death record are Afragola surnames. I haven't had a chance to search for that address in the 1910, and you are more familiar with the surnames from the town than I am. Maybe what you need to do is try to somehow research the Celeste Moccia in the death record in an effort to eliminate the record as belonging to your ancestor. If you can't prove the record belongs to your ancestor, then maybe you need to disprove it, if that makes sense.
about the surname-I have found the surname spelled Spegne currently in the province of Ancona mostly, but also in the Province of Pesaro and Urbino. The surname Spene appears to be Sicilian and is currently found in the town of Gela in the Sicilian Province of Caltanissetta. You've been through the indices of the Afragola records, so I gather the surname never appears there even in a variant spelling form.
I'm sorry I'm not being that helpful concerning this. I really don't know what else to tell you. Maybe some other volunteer on the forum has some ideas I haven't considered.
Erudita
Re: Cannot decipher the profession
Today in Naples Province, in the Comune of Afragola, there exists (in very small number) the double surname Russo Spena.
Perhaps this is a possibility?
From this site:
http://italia.indettaglio.it/eng/cognom ... pania.html
Russo Spena 3.68 Afragola Napoli
T.
Perhaps this is a possibility?
From this site:
http://italia.indettaglio.it/eng/cognom ... pania.html
Russo Spena 3.68 Afragola Napoli
T.
Re: Cannot decipher the profession
What a great find, T! I had not considered a double surname for that town or area of Italy.
Erudita
Erudita
Re: Cannot decipher the profession
Thanks, Erudita!erudita74 wrote:What a great find, T! I had not considered a double surname for that town or area of Italy.
Erudita
Just a tiny contribution following your extensive research on this topic...
T.
Re: Cannot decipher the profession
T
Based on your info, I just found this link-
http://www.nobili-napoletani.it/Spena.htm
"Un ramo degli Spena di Afragola (NA) si fuse con un ramo dei Russo di Acerra (NA) dando vita alla Famiglia Russo Spena (secondo alcuni insignita di titolo marchesale, secondo altri notabile) della quale esiste ancora, in Acerra, il bellissimo Palazzo Russo Spena con Stemma (diverso da quello degli Spena di Frattamaggiore e Napoli)."
***So, now I think it's correct to assume that the correct NYC death record for the poster's Celeste Moccia has been located. Do you agree, T?
Erudita
Based on your info, I just found this link-
http://www.nobili-napoletani.it/Spena.htm
"Un ramo degli Spena di Afragola (NA) si fuse con un ramo dei Russo di Acerra (NA) dando vita alla Famiglia Russo Spena (secondo alcuni insignita di titolo marchesale, secondo altri notabile) della quale esiste ancora, in Acerra, il bellissimo Palazzo Russo Spena con Stemma (diverso da quello degli Spena di Frattamaggiore e Napoli)."
***So, now I think it's correct to assume that the correct NYC death record for the poster's Celeste Moccia has been located. Do you agree, T?
Erudita
Re: Cannot decipher the profession
I agree! It would certainly seem so.
T.
T.
Re: Cannot decipher the profession
Ok excellent, Erudita, Tessa, and THANK you...is there ANY puzzle you cannot solve !
This makes the puzzle fit in a reasonably logically way, thats what is fun
Looks like we found my Great Grandmother, and in NYC, which I would never have known
I would have expected a hyphenated name to appear as such, but instead having just one part fooled me
I had started to build her Tree to see all the maiden names in her line, thinking maybe she used the name of say a grandmother, or great grandmother...but so far I did not see that name appear....(however, I do find the names De Vito, Menna, and Romanetti, in her line)
My next step would be to get the cemetery records, which will show other burials, and the owner, who I believe is another relative thru her in-laws....I havent decide yet to order the documents, since the costs are very large, but I will let you know if I do
(Just to follow up,regarding the death certificate, the doctor was Donato Mastrogiovanni, at 150 Mott Street , NYC.
Thank you again
This makes the puzzle fit in a reasonably logically way, thats what is fun
Looks like we found my Great Grandmother, and in NYC, which I would never have known
I would have expected a hyphenated name to appear as such, but instead having just one part fooled me
I had started to build her Tree to see all the maiden names in her line, thinking maybe she used the name of say a grandmother, or great grandmother...but so far I did not see that name appear....(however, I do find the names De Vito, Menna, and Romanetti, in her line)
My next step would be to get the cemetery records, which will show other burials, and the owner, who I believe is another relative thru her in-laws....I havent decide yet to order the documents, since the costs are very large, but I will let you know if I do
(Just to follow up,regarding the death certificate, the doctor was Donato Mastrogiovanni, at 150 Mott Street , NYC.
Thank you again
Re: Cannot decipher the profession
So happy to help in solving this mystery and very happy that T managed to discover the one clue we needed. Good luck with the rest of your research and do keep us posted on how you're doing with it.
Erudita
Erudita
